Rimfire Central Firearm Forum banner

Belgian Challenger brought back from Dead...Picture Heavy

41K views 131 replies 25 participants last post by  IPSC 
#1 · (Edited)
Some of you may know that I picked up a VERY rough Belgian Challenger that was caught-up in a house fire. Upon careful consideration, I think I can bring this otherwise dead gun back to life. The fire did not loosen the silver soldered front sight ramp, and there was more surface charring and pitting than any real damage "inside", as best as I can determine. I have an engineering background and am well connected in the industry, so I may have the major pieces hardness tested before the first-firing. Or...will simply clamp the gun to a rest and "string-fire" the gun from a sheltered position. We shall see.

All springs were questionable which will require all new springs. There were more issues too....

- missing slide hold-open lever.
- no grips
- safety lever thumb piece missing plastic coating/covering.
- rear sight bent (left side of lateral "tube" affecting the "U" sight picture).
- charring/scaling to be removed, etc, as well as some pitting.

I was doing this project as a learning hobby with the upside potential to get a nice gun on the cheap, if this all turns out successful.

With this posting, I will show the gun "As purchased". I hope to add more pics as time goes on, as we make some progress on this starting point. This will take some time as my good camera crapped out and this too will take time to correct. Here are some pics--->

Full right side view--->


Full left side view--->


Right side close up (showing pits, etc)----->


Left side close up------>


Front view/barrel, showing scaling and ugliness---->


Rear sight, notice left side notch bent down--->


Breech area/misc--->


Rightside frame / closeup---->


Leftside frame / closeup and trigger area--->


Yep....she's a beaut ! There is lots to do, and I have come a long way since the time of these original pictures, as purchased. More to come later when there is better progress and I can access a good digital camera again...

.
 
See less See more
9
#59 ·
I doubt that there is going to be any safety issues with the pistol. The 22lr doesn't have that kind of pressure, and you are dealing with a high quality firearm, not one made out of Zamac.
It pays to be careful, but I wouldn't be overly concerned either.
 
#60 ·
M2HB....

On the one hand, I tend to agree with you that I will likely *not* find a safety problem with the gun....as I mentioned the silver soldered front sight ramp was still attached until I started to drive out the cross-pin ( when it finally did loosen), the gold plated trigger did not lose gold, only "some" of the springs really lost their temper, etc.....

However, I will be cautious.

I would not short-change the lowly 22LR. Here are some operating pressures as listed by SAAMI:

22LR = 24,000 psi
.380 auto = 21,500 psi
38 special = 17,000 psi ( +p = 18,500 psi)
.45 auto = 21,000 psi

From here---> http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

So....no matter what, the first shots will be via "String" from a protected position.

.
 
#61 ·
There is nothing wrong with being cautious. I would look at your pistol as having been "stress relieved" after the machining operation.:D

As thick as the barrel is, there is only one direction that round is going after the firing pin hits it.:D

You are wise in changing all the springs. That is an area where they are probably ruined.
 
#63 ·
maybe this is a dumb question,but...here goes

I figured this might be a good place to ask. I recently looked at a 98% browning pistol wood grips, adjustable rear sight,short barrel no box and one magazine,that looks very much like yours. seller asking 500.00. didn't know much about it. how can you tell if it is a challenger or a nomad???:eek::confused:
 
#64 ·
Challenger has:

- gold trigger (with hidden overtravel screw ). Nomad is blued steel with no overtravel screw.

- Challenger has slide hold-open lever ( none on Nomad, therefore Nomad also doesn't have last-shot hold-open feature).

- Challenger rear frame post (on rear face) shows an inset screw....used as a trigger "weight-of-pull" adjustment. Nomad lacks this.

- Challenger typically has wooden grips. ( Nomad typically has black plastic).

Gunbroker prices are all over the place, with Challengers showing $600-$700, and Nomad about $100-$200 less.

.
 
#65 ·
excellent information

Challenger has:

- gold trigger (with hidden overtravel screw ). Nomad is blued steel with no overtravel screw.

- Challenger has slide hold-open lever ( none on Nomad, therefore Nomad also doesn't have last-shot hold-open feature).

- Challenger rear frame post (on rear face) shows an inset screw....used as a trigger "weight-of-pull" adjustment. Nomad lacks this.

- Challenger typically has wooden grips. ( Nomad typically has black plastic).

Gunbroker prices are all over the place, with Challengers showing $600-$700, and Nomad about $100-$200 less.

.
THANKS, I believe I was looking at a challenger.it is marked made in Belgium . gold trigger. I didn't look at it long enough to notice/remember the other features. 500.doesnt sound too bad then, at 95%++.
 
#69 ·
Simply FYI....

Here is one example currently bid to $360 ( with a few days to go)...some wood distress that can easily redone. Two factory mags too. (wish these guys would remove their finger prints on these guns...gives me the shivers as an acid-point to start corrosion....what are they thinking ??...see this all the time with photos )

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=515982473

.
 
#71 · (Edited)
Well....I got 'er all together...and I must say she is a beaut. Matte industrial-chrome finish with a black front sight blade and black rear sight and sight tang. Looks good. Pics will come later as I am still wrestling with the camera issue.

A few technical details for those that follow this sort of thing.

- the Spirol roll pin used to retain the firing pin: As I mentioned before, the factory shop manual speaks to using a normal roll pin 11/32" long (0.34") if ever you need to replace it, and I was eye-balling the true dimension to be closer to 0.300-0.304". As it turned out, I used a 3 mm dia (0.119") pin that needed to be 0.275" long. And when I compared it to the (fairly mangled) original piece I removed, it was also around that same 0.275" length. I have no idea where the shop manual roll-pin length numbers come from.

- Springs. I needed to replace every single spring in the gun, as a matter of good practice. Some original springs lost temper and some simply got only a bit softer. Here is what is in the gun at the moment, I had some factory spares in my parts stash:

* recoil spring...factory. Now used with white Buckmark buffer.
* firing pin spring.... Buckmark (seems a bit too strong installed in the C1. We will see after test if we need to cut down).
* hammer/mainspring(s)....these are 2 co-axial springs. Factory.
* magazine spring....from CII/early CIII, available from Ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Browning-Ch...hash=item2ed19d71f8:m:m85DKTTyro9cyBs3rNn7J6Q
* sear spring.... factory
* slide hold-open "Swan" shaped spring....factory
* extractor spring. I found a source of small springs that are VERY close to what is used for C1. They are a smidge fatter in rolled diameter, almost Buckmark-like, bit fit and function well. Here is the spec and the source--->
Music Wire Compression Spring, Steel, Metric, 2.82 mm OD, 0.32 mm Wire Size, 8.51 mm Compressed Length, 20.6 mm Free Length, 4.67 N Load Capacity, 0.38 N/mm Spring Rate ( http://www.amazon.com/Compression-S...ords=music+wire+compression+spring+2.82+mm+OD)

Other issues:

- When checking the function of the installed firing pin, I noticed that when the tail-end (hammer-strike-end) was pushed-in as far as it would go, that the tip of the firing pin extended past the front-face of the slide only about 1/2 the amount of another factory slide/pin, I had for comparison. In the other factory slide, the front-pin protrusion was almost the full depth of the rim-recess-depression in the front-face of the slide (that is, would probably allow the tip to contact the barrel breech-face when in-battery,on an empty chamber). That all said, I am simply re-using the firing pin that came with the gun, so I shouldn't have ignition issues. I also noticed that when I dry-fire the gun with a wall anchor installed as a snap-cap, the wall anchor "rim" has a very solid depression mark, where the pin hits. I will check closely for possible light primer hits, especially noting the extra-strong Buckmark firing pin spring installed.

More later....hopefully with pics. Then a shooting test report after that at some point in time.

.
 
#109 ·
Well....I got 'er all together...and I must say she is a beaut. Matte industrial-chrome finish with a black front sight blade and black rear sight and sight tang. Looks good. Pics will come later as I am still wrestling with the camera issue.

A few technical details for those that follow this sort of thing.

- the Spirol roll pin used to retain the firing pin: As I mentioned before, the factory shop manual speaks to using a normal roll pin 11/32" long (0.34") if ever you need to replace it, and I was eye-balling the true dimension to be closer to 0.300-0.304". As it turned out, I used a 3 mm dia (0.119") pin that needed to be 0.275" long. And when I compared it to the (fairly mangled) original piece I removed, it was also around that same 0.275" length. I have no idea where the shop manual numbers come from.

- Springs. I needed to replace every single spring in the gun, as a matter of good practice. Some original springs lost temper and some simply got only a bit softer. Here is what is in the gun at the moment, I had some factory spares in my parts stash:

* recoil spring...factory. Now used with white Buckmark buffer.
* firing pin spring.... Buckmark (seems a bit too strong installed in the C1. We will see after test if we need to cut down).
* hammer/mainspring(s)....these are 2 co-axial springs. Factory.
* magazine spring....from CII/early CIII, available from Ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Browning-Ch...hash=item2ed19d71f8:m:m85DKTTyro9cyBs3rNn7J6Q
* sear spring.... factory
* slide hold-open "Swan" shaped spring....factory
* extractor spring. I found a source of small springs that are VERY close to what is used for C1. They are a smidge fatter in rolled diameter, almost Buckmark-like, bit fit and function well. Here is the spec and the source--->
Music Wire Compression Spring, Steel, Metric, 2.82 mm OD, 0.32 mm Wire Size, 8.51 mm Compressed Length, 20.6 mm Free Length, 4.67 N Load Capacity, 0.38 N/mm Spring Rate ( http://www.amazon.com/Compression-S...ords=music+wire+compression+spring+2.82+mm+OD)

Other issues:

- When checking the function of the installed firing pin, I noticed that when the tail-end (hammer-strike-end) was pushed-in as far as it would go, that the tip of the firing pin extended past the front-face of the slide only about 1/2 the amount of another factory slide/pin, I had for comparison. In the other factory slide, the front-pin protrusion was almost the full depth of the rim-recess-depression in the front-face of the slide (that is, would probably allow the tip to contact the barrel breech-face when in-battery,on an empty chamber). That all said, I am simply re-using the firing pin that came with the gun, so I shouldn't have ignition issues. I also noticed that when I dry-fire the gun with a wall anchor installed as a snap-cap, the wall anchor "rim" has a very solid depression mark, where the pin hits. I will check closely for possible light primer hits, especially noting the extra-strong Buckmark firing pin spring installed.

More later....hopefully with pics. Then a shooting test report after that at some point in time.

.
IPSC what did you use to cut down your spirol pin to .275"? My pin I got from them is 3mm x .3185" long.

It took a couple of months to get my Medalist back from the gunsmith. He had to figure out a way to tighten the rail to the barrel. The retaining pin was stuck and all elongated so the sight rail was loose. I suggested he put a screw in the barrel and use it to tighten against the dovetail sight rail. He did and it turned out nice.

I dropped the frame, slide, barrel (stripped) and the weight to my friend who is a manufacturer. He dropped the parts off to have them nitride treated with his barrels. It was about a 24 hour turn around time and the parts look awesome. Now I just have to find my old firing pin I purchased long ago and put the pistol back together.:eek:
 
#74 ·
Did not cut down the Buckmark firing pin. Installed...it felt a bit stronger than factory, but I won't cut down (if at all), until after test firing gives us some data to go on.
As long as it fires with plenty of force, the heavier spring won't hurt a thing.

Was the BuckMark firing pin spring that you used a 2000 or earlier spring, or a post 2000 spring? I don't know the difference, but I know that Browning lists them as different springs.
 
#75 · (Edited)
M2HB....

In my response #49 above in this thread, I mention the part number used.
" I will try Buckmark Firing Pin spring # B5150003 in this Belgian Challenger."

I believe this to be pre-2000. The post 2000 FP is now sold only as an "assembly" (part number B5150065), and I bought one of these too, but the spring is encapsulated in some sort of housing that needs to be disassembled if you want the spring alone. The pre-2000 FP spring costs something like $1.25 and "2001+" part....the spring assembly,.... went for $6.25 as I recall. All from Browning/Winchester out of Arnold, MO.

.
 
#76 ·
M2HB....

In my response #49 above in this thread, I mention the part number used.
" I will try Buckmark Firing Pin spring # B5150003 in this Belgian Challenger."

I believe this to be pre-2000. The post 2000 FP is now sold only as an "assembly" (part number B5150065), and I bought one of these too, but the spring is encapsulated in some housing that needs to be disassembled if you want the spring alone. The pre-2000 FP spring costs something like $1.25 and "2001+" part....the spring assembly,.... went for $6.25 as I recall. All from Browning/Winchester out of Arnold, MO.

.
I ordered 20 pre 2000 firing pins and 4 springs, but they haven't arrived yet. I figured the old setup would be more like the Beglium pistols, but I wasn't sure. Their price list page shows the old style firing pins are being discontinued, so I decided I would stock up for the one old BuckMark that I own.:D If they look close to the Challenger firing pin, I will clean them out.:D
 
#81 ·
Rick, Bill offered to send me one of his repro pre-2000 firing pins, but I haven't taken him up on his generous offer as I have converted my older BM to post-2000 since I prefer the slides with "ears" anyway. You may recall that it turned out to be a weak mainspring that was causing the FTFs versus a worn firing pin after all.

Steering this thread back on track... IPSC, looking forward to your function testing report on the restored Challenger.
 
#82 · (Edited)
I will first try to get some pictures up on where the gun is now....before I report out on any function test results. Just look at the previous "after" pictures,...showing the gun filed and sanded "in the white"...and imagine the gun now more matte/silver looking, like a weather-worn aluminum screen door color.

The gold trigger cleaned up real nice and gives a good contrast (thanks Mapleaf99) ...as does the modified black Nomad grips. Thanks also go to Mark2506 who sourced a nice set of alternate wooden grips for me. Mark, the slight wood discoloration on the bottom of the grips (that you mention), was worked-on and the grips refinished real nice...you can't see this discoloration anymore.

.
 
#86 · (Edited)
Question to M2HB, or anyone else who is using the white Buckmark buffer.

When the slide is now "locked-back" and held-open against the hold-open lever, how much clearance is left (that is...how much more can the slide be retracted) to allow the slide hold open lever to then drop-free after the mag is removed? I ask only because I needed to fabricate a new hold-open lever from a Buckmark part...and don't know the clearance based on a normal Challenger lever. From the reports from people who installed the buffer, there is no functioning reliability problems.....but if my clearance with the Buckmark buffer is a bit tighter than normal, then it may cause some issues like occasional failure to hold open after last shot, or ejection issues, as the slide no longer goes to the full-rearward position as before with the buffer installed.

I hand cycled some #4 wall anchors out of the chamber, so feed and ejection looks fine, and the slide hold-open works well. My clearance is about 0.002-0.003" ( eyeball measurement)...and was wondering what others are finding using a normal Challenger hold open lever.

.
 
#87 ·
As I recall, there isn't much clearance at all. There is enough for the sllide to be held back after the last shot, but not much more. I was first concerned about this issue, but it has never affected the function of the pistol after many thousands of rounds. You can really notice the difference in the recoil with the buffer istalled.
 
#88 · (Edited)
M2HB... I guess you are generally confirming my point. There is precious-little extra movement of the slide possible in the locked-open position, once the buffer is installed.

I wanted to make sure the small amount of movement allowed with my modified Buckmark lever is about the same as with the Challenger hold-open lever. If need be, I can always narrow-down the buffer a bit. As you know, I am using the buffer on this gun especially due to concerns that the core metal may have been negatively affected by the house-fire heat.....but as you so often say, it's a generally good thing for any of our pistols as it avoids heavy slamming of metal-against-metal.

.
 
#90 · (Edited)
M2HB..... that picture may help others see the amount that the slide is prevented to move further rearward, based on the thickness of the buffer.

My question is more along the lines....." how much more can you rack the slide back to allow release of the slide hold-open lever?"

With my modified Buckmark lever, it's not very much more, I would guess only a few thousands of an inch. If that's what you're seeing with the standard Challenger lever.....then we are the same, and therefore I should be OK with my arrangement.

.
 
#91 ·
M2HB..... that picture may help others see the amount that the slide is prevented to move further rearward, based on the thickness of the buffer.

My question is more along the lines....." how much more can you rack the slide back to allow release of the slide hold-open lever?"

With my modified Buckmark lever, it's not very much more, I would guess only a few thousands of an inch. If that's what you're seeing with the standard Challenger lever.....then we are the same, and therefore I should be OK with my arrangement.

.
Yours is about the same. I can't move it much, but I don't have a way to measure it. The mechanism barely catches the slide, but it does work. I have never had a failure with it.
 
#92 · (Edited)
OK...here are my latest pics...probably my last batch telling this story.

The first picture is one I forgot to post last time... it is an "after" picture with the gun still "in the white" before plating. Shows the filing pattern that remained on the barrel-side flats,...and the polishing work done on the round section of the barrel, after I re-soldered the front sight ramp back on.

The rest of the pics, are all after the hard-chrome plating process was applied.

I'm stoked....I'm hoping the gun functions properly which will make this project complete..

























.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top