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  #16  
Old 08-14-2014, 09:28 AM
doclu60
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Yes Bill, I do consider you a very non-bias source. I have not paid much attention to the forum in the last several days as I have been visiting my dad in Washington state.

I knew the J&L results showed an improvement. I also know that during a range session with my limited skill, I see ups and downs in my performance. For me, at least, was the tuner responsible for a better group, or did I just have my "groove on" for that target?

For people such as yourself, who have a greater skill set than me, based on a 200 point target, 6-1/2% may seem worthwhile. For me, at this point, I would not know if it was a gadget or just a time when I "put it all together" for that particular target.

I will need to see a higher increase in accuracy before I would commit funds to a tuner. Ammo expenditures and trigger time seem to be a more worthwhile pursuit for me at this time.

As always......Respectfully Yours.......Scott
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  #17  
Old 08-14-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doclu60 View Post
Yes Bill, I do consider you a very non-bias source. I have not paid much attention to the forum in the last several days as I have been visiting my dad in Washington state.

I knew the J&L results showed an improvement. I also know that during a range session with my limited skill, I see ups and downs in my performance. For me, at least, was the tuner responsible for a better group, or did I just have my "groove on" for that target?

For people such as yourself, who have a greater skill set than me, based on a 200 point target, 6-1/2% may seem worthwhile. For me, at this point, I would not know if it was a gadget or just a time when I "put it all together" for that particular target.

I will need to see a higher increase in accuracy before I would commit funds to a tuner. Ammo expenditures and trigger time seem to be a more worthwhile pursuit for me at this time.

As always......Respectfully Yours.......Scott

Scott,

I think of a tuner the same way that I think of a trigger job, bedding a stock, buying a target scope or having Que do a bolt or barrel. All of the above reduce the variables in the equipment which allows the shooter to concentrate on shooting. In other words, you worry less about the rifle/gadget and more about the shooter.
I don't offer this in an argumentative manner only as an additional way to think about the matter.
I'm glad I'm still on the unbiased list.
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The older I get, the more grateful I am.......
William (Bill) Powell
Cave Creek, Az.
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  #18  
Old 08-14-2014, 06:50 PM
Stealth01
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Dave,
Out of curiosity, your targets show "tuner" positions 1 & 2. How did you determine those positions/configurations for your testing? My Harrell tuner has 25 clicks X 4 sub settings X 5 Integers X 3 different "fore weights" that can be combined in 7 different combinations... Just curios how you achieved the optimum setting/combination so quickly. It took me a day on the range with a dedicated lot of ammo (Lapua Midas +) to find my optimal setting for that ammo and weather conditions. I haven't tried a tuner on my 10/22s but shoot them on my Anschutz 1416 and see a remarkable improvement in groupings. I've just ordered an Ezell PID tuner for my new Anschutz tuned to the 5th harmonic (PRX formula... bet that makes Scott's head hurt). I'm interested in your 10/22 results because, as I said, I haven't installed a tuner on my Kidd Custom 10/22. Please keep us posted of future results when you settle on a particular type ammo.

Ken
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2014, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth01 View Post
Dave,
Out of curiosity, your targets show "tuner" positions 1 & 2. How did you determine those positions/configurations for your testing? My Harrell tuner has 25 clicks X 4 sub settings X 5 Integers X 3 different "fore weights" that can be combined in 7 different combinations... Just curios how you achieved the optimum setting/combination so quickly. It took me a day on the range with a dedicated lot of ammo (Lapua Midas +) to find my optimal setting for that ammo and weather conditions. I haven't tried a tuner on my 10/22s but shoot them on my Anschutz 1416 and see a remarkable improvement in groupings. I've just ordered an Ezell PID tuner for my new Anschutz tuned to the 5th harmonic (PRX formula... bet that makes Scott's head hurt). I'm interested in your 10/22 results because, as I said, I haven't installed a tuner on my Kidd Custom 10/22. Please keep us posted of future results when you settle on a particular type ammo.

Ken
Ken,

I apologize if this was misleading. The J&L PRX tuner isn't adjustable. It's just plug 'n play!
For the 3rd and 4th groups with each ammo, the tuner was installed and nothing more. For the 1st, 2nd, and 5th groups, the tuner sat on the bench.
I was looking over these targets again this morning and I'm really quite impressed with the change I see in the Center-X and UltraMatch ammo.
I do have a few boxes of Midas + left, so I think on my next trip to the range I will concentrate on shooting groups with and without the tuner using this ammo alone.
I'll keep mixing up the tuner/no tuner condition to keep it as fair as I can.

Cheers,
Dave

Last edited by Nosnil22; 08-16-2014 at 06:13 AM. Reason: Corrected Lapua ammo type
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  #20  
Old 08-15-2014, 09:41 AM
mwezell
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Oh, tuners work. No doubt in my mind about that. I'm biased toward mine, but all tuners do basically the same thing. I just feel that mine is a step in the right direction, in terms of tuner design, due to better vibration dampening than a solid mass tuner. IMHO, the only people that don't think a tuner works are the ones that don't have much/any experience with tuners.
In the last 8 seasons of shooting, I've only seen one person that tried one and didn't like what they do...and he didn't give it a fair chance before discounting it. BTW, that tuner was not one of mine. It was a Lambert tuner that has been around for a while and has proven itself. Thing is, all tuners do the same thing. If there's not a design or installation defect, they all will work. That said, adjustable tuners, both in weight and location, make the most sense to me. That's not to say that a tuner like the J&L won't help, but I feel that the fixed weight and location leave something on the table. Obviously, Joe feels that it's simplicity is worth what it gives up. We just disagree about that, and that's ok. That's why there are Fords and Chevys. Both designs, along with the others that have been around for a while now, essentially do the same thing. PRX tuning is something else entirely. It has shown to be worthwhile in most cases, but weight and it's location still matter, with or without PRX tuning.
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2014, 09:48 AM
mwezell
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Another thing...It is possible to find a lot of ammo that shoots great without a tuner because it's in tune in that particular rifle without one. Just like in centerfire, the load just happens to be tuned to the rifle. We aren't afforded that luxury very often with rimfire, so tuning the rifle to the ammo is the only option left, and it works, too.
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2014, 05:35 PM
Stealth01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosnil22 View Post
Ken,

I apologize if this was misleading. The J&L PRX tuner isn't adjustable. It's just plug 'n play!
For the 3rd and 4th groups with each ammo, the tuner was installed and nothing more. For the 1st, 2nd, and 5th groups, the tuner sat on the bench.
I was looking over these targets again this morning and I'm really quite impressed with the change I see in the Center-X and UltraMatch ammo.
I do have a few boxes of Center-X left, so I think on my next trip to the range I will concentrate on shooting groups with and without the tuner using this ammo alone.
I'll keep mixing up the tuner/no tuner condition to keep it as fair as I can.

Cheers,
Dave
No Dave, my bad... I assumed the J&L was a typical adjustable tuner! Next time I'll do my homework before commenting.

Ken
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