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  #1  
Old 08-09-2014, 08:17 AM
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Short J&L Tuner Test



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I received my J&L Tuner the other day and did some quick and dirty testing yesterday afternoon.
I'll state here that this data is just my starting point. I only hoped to gain some early insight into what a tuner may or may not do for me and the way I shoot.

My rifle, except for the stock, is completely new compared to what I was shooting last year.
Ruger receiver, bedded
Ruger bolt - Blackened and Tuned by Que
KIDD charging handle/rod
KIDD 2-Stage Trigger 8/8
KIDD 20-inch fluted SS barrel, fully floated
Front Pillar
KIDD Rear Tang installed by Azguy
Weaver T36 scope
Burris Signature Zee Rings
SEB NEO front and rear bags
Caldwell Rock BR rest



Since some of my ammo is severely limited, I could only shoot a limited number of groups. The bore had been cleaned recently, so I started with a group of 5 fouling shots to warm the barrel before shooting a group for comparison.
After the 1st 5-shot group with a naked barrel, I put the tuner on and shot 2 groups. The last group for each type of ammo was shot again without the tuner.
I'm not exactly certain why I determined this shooting order. It just felt like mixing and matching the tuner/no tuner condition would somewhat level the playing field as far as conditions. Testing took me 2 hours to complete.
For each successive brand of ammo, I fouled the barrel with 5 shots on the left of the target. (This may or may not be enough.)

Every shot was fired from the same magazine and the first shot was charged by hand and included in each group. I don't believe that this rifle suffers first shot flyers. Rarely was the first shot the worst in the group.

Here's a photo of the targets, shot at 50 yards:




After I got home, I measured the raw group sizes with calipers:


Edit: Added published muzzle velocity to table.

Conditions at the range were as calm as I've seen in quite a while. 75 degrees and generally nothing more than a very gentle breeze. I do not yet own any true wind flags or claim any real ability to compensate for the conditions.
Each target was shot aiming in the center of the bull and only twice did my bench streamer indicate that I should wait for the wind to die down before shooting. The zero on the scope was not touched during this test.
I shot each target with only my trigger finger (I'm now using my left hand) touching the rifle. The KIDD 2-stage allows me to pull the trigger without disturbing the sight picture at all. With 36X, I feel like I would notice any movement.

I find it interesting that the tuner seemed to improve some ammo performance, while it seemed to hurt others. It has a definite impact on each brand as can be seen by the lower POI each time it was used. I certainly plan to do further testing of the Lapua and Federal, if and when I can find any.

Cheers,
Dave

Last edited by Nosnil22; 08-09-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:09 AM
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Very nice presentation Dave!!
I'm wishing I'd had this to follow before starting my thread. Much more consise, to the point and a clear presentation of the results.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:54 AM
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Dave

Great Job !!
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:56 AM
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Bill,

Thanks buddy, but I feel my post is severely lacking as compared to yours. Since reading your PM, maybe we can work together and come up with a joint presentation method?
I'm sure we can come up with a way to standardize the info. Just thinking out loud. Let me know if this interests you.

Regards,
Dave
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by joechaconiii View Post
Great Job !!
Thanks Joe! I'll keep working at it.
And thanks for the speedy delivery!

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:59 AM
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Interesting data, and trends. It only makes sense that if you hang a mass on the end of the barrel, the POI would be lower. The more interesting thing I see is the differing effect on ammo differences. Which seems to show that the ability to adjust, or "Tune", your system could be of some importance. As even within lots of the same ammo, there will be differences. If you cannot adjust to these differences you may not be able to wring out that last iota of accuracy. Hard to make that call based on a short set of data. However, it will be very interesting to see what the accumulation of more data brings to light. For now, I'll sit back and watch with great interest!
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by azguy View Post
Interesting data, and trends. It only makes sense that if you hang a mass on the end of the barrel, the POI would be lower. The more interesting thing I see is the differing effect on ammo differences. Which seems to show that the ability to adjust, or "Tune", your system could be of some importance. As even within lots of the same ammo, there will be differences. If you cannot adjust to these differences you may not be able to wring out that last iota of accuracy. Hard to make that call based on a short set of data. However, it will be very interesting to see what the accumulation of more data brings to light. For now, I'll sit back and watch with great interest!
George,
I was more than a little surprised when the first ammo I tried, RWS R-50, seemed worse with the tuner since this has been my go-to ammo for this rifle. Although I will certainly continue testing those that showed improvement with this tuner, I completely agree with you that adjustability seems paramount to get the best results possible. I'm hoping Tony Purdy will look in on this and post a comment. I'm already wondering if this tuner works best with muzzle velocities in a certain range. I'm going to look up some published speeds and put them in the chart as a starting point.

Before I bought this tuner, I made peace with the fact that it wouldn't be the last!

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:35 AM
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Great job, Dave- looks like you need to keep testing ammo!
Interesting trends- isn't Norma made by RWS?

DrGunner
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DrGunner View Post
Great job, Dave- looks like you need to keep testing ammo!
Interesting trends- isn't Norma made by RWS?

DrGunner
Doc,

Thanks and you're right! I think this will only be the beginning.
I thought that I had read before that RWS made the Norma ammo, but I just looked at a press release from when this first came out that states Norma is in Sweden.

Later,
Dave
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Old 08-09-2014, 12:07 PM
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Dave,

You have a PM. Cooperation and collaboration is a good thing for all involved.

I think Norma T-22 is the same as RWS Rifle Match. I have both and can find no difference, including the 'RWS' stamp on the bottom of the case.
I have had some mixed results with both.
Once I have established a tune for the Ezell tuner I'll be back to try them again, along with whatever other ammo I have.

You didn't say, or I didn't see it, were these groups shot at 50 yards. I'm guessing yes but just to be sure.
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Last edited by Bill40718; 08-09-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 08-09-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill40718 View Post
Dave,

You have a PM. Cooperation and collaboration is a good thing for all involved.

I think Norma T-22 is the same as RWS Rifle Match. I have both and can find no difference, including the 'RWS' stamp on the bottom of the case.
I have had some mixed results with both.
Once I have established a tune for the Ezell tuner I'll be back to try them again, along with whatever other ammo I have.

You didn't say, or I didn't see it, were these groups shot at 50 yards. I'm guessing yes but just to be sure.
Bill,

Once I get your Excel file, I'll see what I can do.
Good point on the target distance. I'm going to add that to the original post along with the fact that the rifle is bedded and wears a rear tang.

Thanks,
Dave
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:35 PM
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I could easily see where the different ammos create different chamber/barrel pressures. These variables in pressure would obviously affect "System stiffness" which would definitely affect system resonance, or harmonics, and one would need adjustability to help cover such variables, or changes. Not saying a "non-adjusting" tuner is of no use. Not at all. But I can certainly see where there is no such thing as a "silver bullet" that can cover every variable without adjustment. Just isn't going to happen. At least in my humble opinion. Which ain't worth that much. I would find it VERY interesting to compare velocities and subsequent affects on POI.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:18 PM
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Hi All

Sorry for not seeing this thread earlier. These are some interesting results. I will be interested in seeing how things progress.

Although groups are a decent indicator of a rifles ability, I would suggest that you shoot head to head targets, both with and without the tuner. I like the target you use. Allows you to warm up a bit and still shoot a full target sheet both with and without the tuner, with one box of ammo. I think this is where you will see that the tuner comes into its own.

I have one of Joe's tuners for my bench rifle (not a 10/22). It groups different speeds all pretty well, but shoots targets best with 1050. I have only been shooting Eley, speeds of 1028, 1047, 1050, and 1063. I would like to try some CenterX or Midas.

I have a couple of other thots going on, but want to think it through before I say anything.

I appreciate the work you have put onto this. I look forward to seeing this test progress

Have a good nite all

Tony
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Old 08-13-2014, 12:01 AM
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This is all very interesting. I have shot both Norma Tac-22 and Geco semi-auto and Geco Rifle in a couple of my builds. (only one with the Tac-22) All three shot pretty good considering the cost of said ammo. All three branded ammos had a RWS head stamp. (ie; German production out of the RWS plant, not Sweden) I am hoping the Norma Tac-22 preforms as I expect since four bricks are waiting for me at home after I get back from vacation!! I also have a brick of R50 in the same shipment. Range time will tell. As far as a tuner, I have no experience with those. I do know this though, the tuner stuff, not respective of brand, has not shown any real proven increase in accuracy from a non bias source yet on our forum, or at least our sub-forum. I also know the leaders of the Ultimate games, at least the first place runners and some of the second place or less runners, used no tuner at all to achieve the groups posted. I am NOT opposed to spending a little cash in search of shooting some good groups with these rifles, but as of yet, I have not seen anything published from a second party source that would influence me to spend money on a tuner as opposed to spending the same amount of money on ammo to practice at getting better at my rifle craft (bench shooting). I do believe the smallest group posted for 100yd on RFC (using a 10/22 based rifle) was done with a rifle built from an OEM recv'r , no Kidd trigger, no rear tang, and no tuner. If I am wrong, someone will step in and tell me and the others, as such. Later brothers.

Last edited by doclu60; 08-13-2014 at 12:10 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doclu60 View Post
As far as a tuner, I have no experience with those. I do know this though, the tuner stuff, not respective of brand, has not shown any real proven increase in accuracy from a non bias source yet on our forum, or at least our sub-forum. I also know the leaders of the Ultimate games, at least the first place runners and some of the second place or less runners, used no tuner at all to achieve the groups posted.
Hey Scott,
I hope you consider me to be a 'non bias source' as that is what I am working very hard to be. I have 3 tuners by 3 different manufacturers. I have seen noticeable improvements in groups and accuracy using all of the tuners.

I used my J&L tuner in a back to back test shooting ABRA targets at 50 yards. The target shot with the tuner was 13 points better than the target shot with a naked barrel.

The following target, which is currently #5 on the 1/2" at 50 yard list, was shot with a Harrell tuner installed on a 25.5" GM bull barrel.


While working on the tune of my Ezell tuner I have shot 30+ 3 shot groups and nearly 50 groups of 5 shots. Only a few, maybe 5 or 6, of those groups, shot with the Ezell tuner, were larger than the average group size for that rifle without the tuner. That was using primarily CenterX but also included some groups shot with T-22 and Eley Club.
I have not finalized the tune on this rifle yet but I'm expecting .250 and below groups with decent ammo.

My opinion; a tuner won't make a bad barrel into a shooter but it sure can help get the best from a good barrel. When I finalize the tune on my Re-Run Too rifle, I will post some with and without targets, shot back to back, using the same ammo.
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Last edited by Bill40718; 08-13-2014 at 08:15 AM.
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