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  #16  
Old 04-29-2017, 02:50 PM
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I used the .015 because I had gotten a foot of it a few years ago, to use for a small shim, and I had some left. If I was going to buy some for this purpose I would get thinner stock. It would be easier to form.

The reason I like the Permatex is I get the thickness I need. When I was using various pieces of inner tube, the thickness of the inner tube dictated how much pressure you were applying. Suppose you actually need .037 to make contact with the barrel, and your inner tube is .030. So you use 2 pieces, which gives you excess pressure.

I trim my Permatex in place, to the shape I want, with a utility cutter when I pull the barrel. Then if I want to try a small amount of pressure, I pull the pad, and put a layer or two of painters tape, or aluminum tape in, the put the pad back in.

I think the tuning with rubber effects harmonics differently than epoxy. One may work better for one guy, and not for the other.
I made one epoxy pad, and put it over a layer of painters tape, hoping for easy removal if I wanted to take it out. I got the tip of a small screw driver under the edge of it and it popped right out.

Good luck with your final journey. With the trips to the range, to try different things, it can take longer than the build.
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye57 View Post
I used the .015 because I had gotten a foot of it a few years ago, to use for a small shim, and I had some left. If I was going to buy some for this purpose I would get thinner stock. It would be easier to form.

The reason I like the Permatex is I get the thickness I need. When I was using various pieces of inner tube, the thickness of the inner tube dictated how much pressure you were applying. Suppose you actually need .037 to make contact with the barrel, and your inner tube is .030. So you use 2 pieces, which gives you excess pressure.

I trim my Permatex in place, to the shape I want, with a utility cutter when I pull the barrel. Then if I want to try a small amount of pressure, I pull the pad, and put a layer or two of painters tape, or aluminum tape in, the put the pad back in.

I think the tuning with rubber effects harmonics differently than epoxy. One may work better for one guy, and not for the other.
I made one epoxy pad, and put it over a layer of painters tape, hoping for easy removal if I wanted to take it out. I got the tip of a small screw driver under the edge of it and it popped right out.

Good luck with your final journey. With the trips to the range, to try different things, it can take longer than the build.
Thanks. I like the Permatex idea because I had to relieve the barrel channel a little to fit the Feddersen barrel; not much, but enough that I have some variation in clearance between the rear and forend tip, so I needed a couple layers when the pad was near the rear, and even one at the front was a little too much pressure. With the Permatex, I think I'd be able to use the pad for that specific part of the barrel channel and fine tune from there.

I hear you on the epoxy. The first time I messed with epoxy pad, I found the particular barrel worked best with two pads; one near the rear, and another mid-barrel. I've never had a lot of luck with rubber pads, but I've never played around with these lighter tapered barrels either, so more to learn.
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2017, 09:06 PM
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Added the epoxy pad, replacing the rubber inner tube, this morning and popped it out a couple hours ago to see how it came out. Funny that it imprinted the Feddersen info stamped on the bottom side of the barrel into the epoxy. I had tried to avoid that by filling it with shoe polish, but I guess I didn't get it all the way flush. Oh well, I guess that's as custom as bedding jobs gets. I also went for a tidy look right off the bat by building up a little wall of PlayDoh around it before adding the epoxy.

Once I popped the action out, I was able to drill the holes for the QD sling mounts. It was a really quick job, drilling then test fitting, roughing up the outside of the sockets a little, and then epoxying them in, flush with the stock. Came out OK, not perfect, but at least they're on the bottom side of the stock so I don't have to stare at any imperfections much.




Last edited by rawhp; 04-29-2017 at 09:41 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:37 AM
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Going back to 1978 when I first started bedding my varmint rifles I used playing cards or cardboard to test the correct amount of up pressure on the barrel and then used those same strips of cards to make the "dams" that would become the glass bed pads. It worked very well and was the same way that the gun smithing guru of Rifle Magazine taught me how to bed a barreled action.

In the time leading up to and right after the beginning of the SuperStock I used the same method to determine where the glass bed pad should be for the GMHT barrels. It worked again (for most GMHT barrels I have worked with) and I found the spot which has worked so well. Later when I started using rubber pads I used the same place for all but one very remarkable barrel.



Looking back I realize the two top rifles, rated for accuracy, I have built both were with glass bed pads not rubber but this could have just been that those were the two best barrels as they were both "first run RFC barrels" and I do think that run of barrels was just SLIGHTLY better than most of the rest 17" GMHTs! Those two are my SuperStock "Twins".



Going back to experimenting with the position I shot nearly 1000 rds of ammo testing to find just the perfect place for the pad. I fully expected to have to do this with every barrel but it turned out that all but the barrel Ricochet left me when he passed worked just fine in that position. Of course pad position, thickness and takedown torque all go hand in had to make just the perfect up pressure on the barrel and every one of these rifles shot best the 18-22 inch pounds of torque. In fact I use 20 in/lb on all my rifles. ANY discussion of pressure pads HAS to include the torque value of the takedown!!

For some very strange reason the rifle built to use that barrel, "Ricochet's Tribute", needed a strip of rubber right at the forearm tip. That was exactly where Ricochet put his rubber pressure pads!
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Last edited by Vincent; 04-30-2017 at 07:49 AM.
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2017, 12:56 PM
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Going back to experimenting with the position I shot nearly 1000 rds of ammo testing to find just the perfect place for the pad. I fully expected to have to do this with every barrel but it turned out that all but the barrel Ricochet left me when he passed worked just fine in that position. Of course pad position, thickness and takedown torque all go hand in had to make just the perfect up pressure on the barrel and every one of these rifles shot best the 18-22 inch pounds of torque. In fact I use 20 in/lb on all my rifles. ANY discussion of pressure pads HAS to include the torque value of the takedown!!

For some very strange reason the rifle built to use that barrel, "Ricochet's Tribute", needed a strip of rubber right at the forearm tip. That was exactly where Ricochet put his rubber pressure pads!
Good stuff . I went through a similar process on my first 10/22, that I used basically for experimenting with pressure pads and anything else used to influence barrel harmonics, like a bughole tuners. I also had drilled several pockets in the channel and made spring loaded pressure pads, attempting to control the pressure with spring tension. My conclusion, which I think is consistent with your experience, is that it''s both location and pressure (or mass) that creates the magic for tuning a barrel to the ammo, for any method that doesn't involve a muzzle mounted tuner.

I think the particular challenge for me is that I'm using the Feddersen factory contour barrel, which I'm guessing will not respond to the magic location that the GMHT barrels work with (I tried with a few different pad thickness, and no consistent improvement, so I moved on). On top of that, I didn't think things through carefully enough in the beginning, when I sanded out the barrel channel in order to float the barrel, since it was more difficult to do it evenly because of the taper . In other words, the clearance is now inconsistent, so I can't easily move a pad up and down the channel without automatically changing the pad thickness needed, making testing difficult .

On my experimenting 10/22, I solved this issue by wrapping the whole barrel with a couple of layers of tape. hoggiing out the channel enough to create a slight clearance, then bedding the whole channel. That way after removing the tape, I had consistent clearance all along the channel. I may need to do something like that here, or I could spend forever trying to find the right location and pressure. It's a bit of work to just to create the foundation for testing, but the price I'd pay for poor planning up front. But what Hawkeye57 did with Permatex seem like it could also work, so I'm going to think this through before I go further.

Another thing that occurred to me that could be a similarity between pressure pad tuning and muzzle tuning, when I was watching the bench rest guys the other morning, is that while all of them had tuners (mostly Harrell), and some with bloop tubes (one guy's combo was about a foot long), about 1/3 of them were also using mid-barrel tuners. I had experimented with the mid-barrel thing, but my conclusion was while they influenced harmonics, they didn't work consistently by themselves. I think for the 1/3 of the guys using them is that for their barrels, they helped (I think most of these guys probably have tried them though at some point). I think maybe after finding the right pressure point for the Feddersen barrel, using the old O-ring trick may help fine tune it. I looked at the SuperStock definition, and while it doesn't allow muzzle tuners, it doesn't seem to rule out adding a rubber doohickey mid-barrel; is that an OK assumption?

Anyway, I'm having a blast with this stuff. To tell you the truth, while the gun shot pretty well right off the bat, I'm kind of happy that it has enough room to fine tune both my technique and the gun, which is where I get to learn a thing or two .
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  #21  
Old 04-30-2017, 02:48 PM
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On my experimenting 10/22, I solved this issue by wrapping the whole barrel with a couple of layers of tape. hoggiing out the channel enough to create a slight clearance, then bedding the whole channel. That way after removing the tape, I had consistent clearance all along the channel.
That's what I done , when checking to see how a carbine barrel would shoot in my .920 stock. The barrel was a terrible shooter, but I did get a consistent bed.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=829106 . post #12.

You would think that could be done with epoxy, or rubber. Then put a layer of painters tape in, and make another pad of either material, over the tape. Then it could be moved anywhere you want, and still be the right thickness.
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  #22  
Old 05-11-2017, 01:16 AM
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Front Rest Mod

If all goes well, I'm planning my second outing with my Feddersen-Ruger project gun this Friday. I'm hoping the wind subsides, since it was gusting between 18 to 20 mph today . Either way, I'm taking a day off and hitting the range to practice my technique.

I've read carefully through Vincent's excellent SuperStock Benchrest Shooting thread, and decided to do a mod on my Caldwell Rock rest to gain some flexibility on rifle placement. I extended the reach of the fore end stop, making it adjustable from 1-1/2 inches to around 6 inches when fully extended.

I used some cheap off-the-shelf parts that I got off Amazon, usually used for mounting remote/extended flash units for photography, plus a M6 screw from Home Depot for attaching where the original stop screws in. A few O-rings make up the cushion/bumper that the fore end presses up against. I'll do some fine tuning of the heights tomorrow by setting everything up on a level surface, so it will be usuable by Friday.



Edit: Decided to make the stop fully adjustable:



also added a small felt pad on top to protect the barrel.

Last edited by rawhp; 05-12-2017 at 12:40 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-12-2017, 10:52 AM
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MAN!!

I really like what you did with that rest! Not exactly the same due to different kinds of rests but you hit what I want to do in the end exactly.

I'll start looking for "off the shelf" stuff but I think the actual part that mounts to the rest will need to be machined. Not a hard part to make just have to see about machine access.

This stuff is so much fun!
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  #24  
Old 05-12-2017, 04:20 PM
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MAN!!

I really like what you did with that rest! Not exactly the same due to different kinds of rests but you hit what I want to do in the end exactly.

I'll start looking for "off the shelf" stuff but I think the actual part that mounts to the rest will need to be machined. Not a hard part to make just have to see about machine access.

This stuff is so much fun!

Thanks. I have fun tinkering with this stuff. Sadly, when I drove to the range, I saw a few dump truck turning out of the entrance, and when I got closer, I barely saw any cars or trucks parked. Didn't look right, and then at the parking area gate "No shooting 5/8-5/12. Berm repair". Talk about a let down.

Trying to look at it positively, since the wind blowing at around 15mph.
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:08 PM
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Made it to the range about 1 1/2 hours before closing. It was windy, but when isn't it? 12-15mph according to the weather report, but I suspect it was on the higher end, since the range is located right next to the bay.



The tips that Vincent posted really helped me gain more consistency. I used the fore end bumper set about an inch from the furthest point on the rest, which seemed to work good for now. I think furher out would give me some stability issues. Applying the downward pressure on the gun helped a lot, but it took a while to figure out how to do it consistently. After a while, I found that applying pressure using just my right thumb, directly down on the center of the stock worked best for me, since it didn't twist the gun while pulling the trigger. This it going to take me a while to perfect, but I'm seeing results, which is encouraging.

Started out with the barrel floated, except for the bedding pad right in front of the front tang that I added after the last trip, located where the rubber pad worked best last time.

This time I brought my torque driver and started with the torque set at 20in-lb. Shot 10 rounds, then a 5 round group, then dialed it back 2in-lbs, and repeated. Groups improved at 18in-lb and 16-in-lb. Even though the 18in-lb 10 round group looked best, the 5 round groups looked better at 16in-lb. I figured the 5 round groups might better factor out the wind effect, so decided to explore that setting more.

Next, I added a pad at the fore end tip made with 4 layers of aluminum tape. That was way too much, and groups were all over, so I moved down to 3 layers. Some improvement, but not as good as floated. I ended up with 2 layers, which seemed to show promise. There still was some upward pressure, since my POI was up about an inch. I adjusted the elevation down until POI was the center of the bull again. All of the this testing was with CCI SV, so I switched to SK+SV and shot a few groups. It shot about the same, but the head wind was blowing pretty good by then so who knows how it will do on a better day.

Here are some samples, mainly for my own notes, but representative of the testing.



I noticed when I got home that my torque driver (Utica TS-30) adjustment ring had come loose somehow. This made my torque settings suspect, but hopefully relative to each other. Since I don't have a calibration tool, I chucked a 1/4" hex wrench into the socket, marked off 2" from the center, and wrapped some masking tape on either side, then used my trigger gauge to test the torque at 3 different torques (e.g. 4lb => 8in-lb; 6lb => 12in-lb; 8lb => 16in-lb). Looked to be a little short of 2in-lb low across the three settings, so I rotated the adjustment ring and tightened the set screws.

Next trip, I'll test between the 18in-lb and 16in-lb torque settings (which recalibrated should be between <20in-lb and <18in-lb), and try a couple more pad locations; but I'm happy with the progress so far.

Also, I guess I'll need to figure out a name for this gun, in case I get it shooting well enough to try out some of the shooting games, but I figure I still have time...


Edit: I forgot to mention that at the end of the 2nd shooting session, when the buzzer sounded, I dropped the mag to eject to unspent round. It just stayed in the bolt, held place by the extractor, but didn't eject. Darn, I had forgotten to install the ejector after working on the trigger group! Didn't interrupt my shooting, but made me reach in and dislodge the unfired round at the end of each session.

Last edited by rawhp; 05-14-2017 at 10:53 AM.
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  #26  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:42 PM
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Hello. I've spent a few years over on the 10/22 forum, but my 2nd 10/22 project looks like it fits into the SuperStock class. I've had a lot of fun with my other 10/22 going through a couple of bull barrels and two stocks over the years, and a heck of a lot of DIY mods and tinkering, but this will be my first time trying out a sporter barrel, so I'm hoping to learn a lot (and hopefully contribute) on this forum.

I started a post on this project on the 10/22 forum, but here are the highlights:

My starting point is a Feddersen receiver that I was lucky enough to get for free, and a Feddersen 18" factory contour barrel. The rest of the rifle are either all factory Ruger parts that I've polished or tuned, fabricated pieces, with a small handful of aftermarket parts (hammer bushings and pins).

Here's what it looks like so far:





Some bolt work, typical radiusing, headspacing, extractor tuning and profiling the firing pin. I also added a tension pin in the firing pin slot, after these pics were taken.





Cleaning hole drilled, plus added a rear anchor that is bedded into the stock:



Currently the action is bedded, with brass piller at the takedown screw, and barrel free floated. But, I'm guessing I'll be experimenting with pressure pads after I see how she shoots.

I have the trigger breaking consistently at 2lbs, for now.

Here's my project post:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=898442
That's a beautiful rifle you can't go wrong with Feddersen parts
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  #27  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:55 PM
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Super Duck

I've decided to call my project gun "Super Duck", which was my CB handle way back when CB Radios were popular. Actually my handle started out as something else, but someone on the other end couldn't hear me very well, and thought I said "Super Duck", and it stuck.

Anyway, I got up early this morning, to head for the range and hopefully arrive 50 minutes befor it opened. Got there, and it was already semi-packed, but because the 50/100 range was closed for a rimfire benchrest match. Bummer, and the wind was around 4mph, and their wind flags were moving pretty slowly.

Well, I thought what the heck, and decided to try the 25 yard range. I've never shot at 25 with a rifle, except standing, since the "bench" is really like a bench, made of three 2x6 boards running the length of the range, with a couple openings go through to do the target change. I set up a spot and waited.

I had changed the aluminum pad out, and located two layers of aluminum tape plus one layer of painter's tape, about 1-1/2" from the fore end tip, with 18in-lb torque. I decided to place it there, since of the very few builds I've seen on RFC using the 18" Feddersen Contour barrel, one that shot well located the pad at the fore end tip, of a factory Compact stock. My placement approximated where that would be on my Sporter stock.

I started out with just the front rest, supporting the rear on my shoulder and left arm under the butt. It was a pretty uncomfortable position, sitting on one of the metal folding chairs. Still, 25 felt a lot easier or more forgiving than shooting at 50. Halfway through the first sheet of bulls, I remembered that I could move the front stop forward more, so doing that allowed me to get my rear bag on the bench, albeit under the trigger guard. Then, I figured out that if I reversed the bag, I could get it partially under the pistol grip of the stock. I was only shooting CCI SV today.

First target showed some promise, and was fun to shoot, even in the ackward position. I wish I could do as well at 50.




I was feeling pretty good, so decided to try one of the Ultimate Game targets from the 10/22 forum that was in my bag. The biggest thing I had to deal with was other shooters leaning up against the bench, or reloading their mags on it, making the bench flex and vibrate. I shot the first target, not thinking that I should wait when people were bumping the bench, but on shots where they weren't, POI was spot on:


The second target was a lot better, since I was more patient and waited whenever shooters were leaning or reloading their mags near me. I think this one might qualify for the 1/4" @ 25 game, so I'm going to maesure it with OnTarget to see:


By this time, the match was over, so I moved over to the rifle range. I only had a 20 minutes left, since I was heading to my dad's house after noon. I decided to do the torque testing, for torques between 15in-lb to 20in-lb, in 1in-lb increments, with the new pad position. I only did 3 shot groups because of time. I found that the 18in-lb that I was using was pretty good, but 20in-lb was best. Below 18, and 19 spread way out. I shot two more 5 shot groups at 20in-lb and then one group with SK+SV just to see how it would do with the setup, before time was up.



After shooting at 25, I feel like my biggest improvement gains will be from shooting technique, rather than tweaking the gun. The 25yard range has much less wind, and a that distance, it's barely a factor anyway. I'll probably test 18in-lb and 20in-lb torques a little more, since today's test wasn't very thorough, but otherwise bench technique will be my bigger focus.

Last edited by rawhp; 08-04-2017 at 02:17 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:06 PM
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I have found that for me , 25 is the best for testing the gun ( pad placement / or torque ), and 50 is better for testing me. I like to get things the best that I can at 25, and then work on the 50. At 50 a slight mistake on my part can effect my test results, more so than at 25.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:45 PM
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One would think adding 25 yards is no big deal but it sure is and as has been said above and in other threads, 50 is where technique really shows up.
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  #30  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:07 AM
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One would think adding 25 yards is no big deal but it sure is and as has been said above and in other threads, 50 is where technique really shows up.
Yup, these little pencil barrels are harder to shoot at 50 than my bull barrel at 100. So much more sensitive to how you hold the gun, even if the barrel itself is capable. I'm having lots of fun learning to shoot it!!
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