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  #1  
Old 05-09-2016, 04:22 PM
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Cool New Maple Sport Heavy - First range report with pics and problems.



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I finally had to try a Kidd barrel and trigger kit Hate to admit it, but they rock! I had originally set this action into a Raptor stock, thinking I would call the build "Me2" because it was pretty typical and represented my final capitulation to the Kidd crowd, but then a great deal appeared in the TPC on a custom Maple stock with varmint characteristics. I devised a plan to make the gun a SuperSport Heavy instead of an Ultimate, though it may push the envelope a little

Anyway, as you can see, the stock rides the bags pretty well, though I need to make a flat pad for the front rest instead of the U-shaped bag it came with, as the forend has a flat bottom. The butt area is really thoughtfully shaped, with a nice curve to adjust the point of aim with a little sliding on the rear bag while still maintaining stability. Great design! Props to Mkling I love the flutes in the forend, though I hesitate to call them "fingergrooves" because of the overall width making an encircling grip unrealistic. They are great for a front thumb hold against the rest, though, and really break up what could have been a blocky area! The stock has an aluminum pillar, BTW, and the action centered nicely with no adjustment by shimming.
The grip area feels great, but finger placement on the straight trigger could be better. I think a curved trigger might feel nicer; future change perhaps.

Action:
Ruger OEM Silver receiver and TG
JWH bolt and handle
Kidd 20" fluted stainless barrel
Kidd trigger kit
Mueller APV scope
Leupold rings

I did have a couple of hammer following events and one slam fire, with the corresponding bullet hole marked on the target. I wonder if the pin holes in the OEM TG may be causing Kidd hammer and sear to mis-align, with not enough bite to be safe. These problems occurred early, and then seemed to disappear. One very odd thing is that a loaded magazine will not seat under a closed bolt without very firm pressure - I can clearly see that the top round is hitting the underside of the bolt and being marked. Locking the bolt open during loading eliminates this conflict, and empty mags seat fine. The stock is not dragging on them, it's definitely hitting the bolt.

50 yard target, intermittent wind, and Eley target and SK+. Groups were shot pretty quickly, left to right, top to bottom. Black dots on target are .5". I am no great shooter, but I think the gun did its part, though I would like another try. A truly calm day would be nice; I tried to wait and shoot between breezes, but don't think I did my best overall. I have a sense that this barrel is more consistent than my others - fewer flyers maybe. Anyway, what do you folks think?









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Old 05-09-2016, 04:33 PM
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I really like the 'dual purpose' aspect of the fore end with 'finger groove' and narrow (relative to the full up BR 3" wide) flat-bottomed fore end combination a lot.

And of course it is very pretty and apparently pretty accurate too.
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:36 PM
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I love the unique design of this stock - really cool! I am excited to try and get some better groups soon.

Does anyone have any insight into the problem with the round in the magazine hitting the bolt? It's kind of annoying to have trouble loading this gun.....
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Old 05-13-2016, 08:03 PM
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I really like the 'dual purpose' aspect of the fore end with 'finger groove' and narrow (relative to the full up BR 3" wide) flat-bottomed fore end combination a lot.

And of course it is very pretty and apparently pretty accurate too.
You are right. While I have not shot this stock I shot shot a milder version on a Ruger American Rifle from Boyds and practically fell in love after only one group. Even my Tuck Finger groove with it flat bottom is nice on the bags but still not at all too severe to feel weird in your hands and I think that is one of the factors that make the flat bottomed finger groove type stocks nice is that they give you a good portion of the best of both worlds.

I have another stock on the way and am really looking forward to it both for looks and "feel"
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Last edited by Vincent; 12-11-2016 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:36 AM
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So I got the GF behind the Maple Sport Heavy, and I think she did better than me (not uncommon). The 4 group target pic is hers, and the 8 group pic is mine from that day. I have the best group, but I think hers are overall more consistent and average smaller. Unfortunately, the gun is not really safe to fire, and may have to be retired or reworked. While we did not have any doubles, it will consistently fire if the bolt is dropped on a loaded chamber. I know this because it will FTF, and then when you remove the mag and rack the bolt to re-cock the hammer and try to fire the stuck unfired round, it fires upon racking. It might actually be the JWH bolt assembly at fault, not sure. Maybe I should check the firing pin protrusion and headspace? Or, I can swap on a reliable TG and see if the problem leaves with the Kidd components, or stays with the JWH ones Kind of annoying, but hopefully fixable! Interesting to see how different our groups are...





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Old 05-16-2016, 07:46 PM
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Problem can only be bolt assy or trigger assy.

You have other 10/22 right? Just swap bolts and see if problem moves to other rifle or goes away in this one.

No problem? Swap trigger to other rifle see if problem moves to other rifle or goes away in this rifle.

Not likely but possible this trigger assy does not get along with this bolt.

When we start creating our own rifles by mixing and matching parts that were not designed from scratch to work together.

Many years ago a well known owner of an aftermarket 10/22 parts company used to use me to test his latest and greatest and many things that hit the market were as result of many late night phone calls. He started out by modifying Ruger parts before making his own.

He sent me the latest and by far greatest trigger Assy PARTS to go into my 1976 "Liberty" Carbine I had bought new for $59.95. I was shooting another rifle that day for serious accuracy testing but it started raining. By raining I mean BUCKETS full. So I got out the 10/22 to test the trigger.First test was not even aimed just pointed down range. ZZZZZZZZZZiP. 9 rounds before I could get my finger of the trigger Holy CRAP! Both trigger and sear had adjustment screws in this design. I backed them out a ways and watching carefully TAPPED the trigger. ZIIP 3 to 5 rounds before I could release the trigger. A full auto 10/22 has a SERIOUS cycle rate!! I then set BOTH adjustments at the least adjustment possible....ZIIIP another 5 shot burst followed by another that emptied the 10 round mag.

I had just tuned that mag so I through in a stock mag and some SK Standard Plus (the other had been H.V.) ZZIP. 9 rounds and a jam. Again 9 rounds and a jam. Normally I would have been very paranoid about the full auto but it was raining so hard on the steel roof I could just hear the thing and had the range to myself. Long story short I went through at least 200 rounds and was having a bunch of illegal but unintended fun!!

Rain started letting up a little so I took the trigger ASSY out of the rifle. Locked the sear in one ammo box and locked the hammer in another. When I got home I called him and told him what had happened.

"That is impossible" was his reaction. (I half thought it might be a joke on me). He put the parts into his trigger housing, readjusted for a finer trigger as I had pretty much set it at full heavy. Trigger was great. We started comparing notes. My 1976 Housing was VERY different than his late 1990s early 2000s housing. His had crisp molding lines while mine looked almost organic in comparison. The cause was the center to center distance on the hammer/sear pin holes. Ever since then I have warned people about just putting "trigger kits" into early housings.

If you are using an early housing you may have a similar problem. Mine only would run full auto because the housing was well worn (well over a 100,000 rounds and THEN polished inside).

Ever notice KIDD does not back their warranty on metal trigger housings for their drop in kit? "Designed for polymer housing only" or some such. This kind of "stacking of tolerances" with after market parts can cause real problems. Throw in an early housing and anything can happen.

Remember folks AS SOON AS YOU START MODIFYING THINGS YOU ARE NOW A FIREARMS DESIGNER AND YOU TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY.

Several people here in the past wanted to blame Ruger, or KIDD or Rimfire Technologies and it is not their fault most of the time. If you combine two parts from differing companies it is now YOUR design.
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-16-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:39 PM
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All good points, I do indeed understand the risks of mixing parts, however, i want help to fix things After some testing tonight, I found that my GF's gun will fire if the bolt is dropped on a live round in the chamber, as did my Maple Sport Heavy at the range. In both guns, the TGs pass the hammer test, and I cannot get the hammers to follow or slip when dropping on an empty chamber...or at all. Both triggers have consistently reset during live fire, and as far as I can tell, work correctly. In fact, her gun will fire with the hammer removed, simply by letting the bolt drop on a live round. I think the JWH bolt assemblies are somehow causing primer strikes to happen when the bolt slams home on a live round already in the chamber. I tried this test with the round seated firmly and with the round almost seated, and in both scenarios the GFs gun will fire and the Maple will indent the primer (though not fire) even though the hammer is not released (pr present!). I do not know why the Maple will not fire like it did at the range, but it marks the primer. I currently think the bolts are the problem. Swapping an OEM bolt into the GFs gun instantly cures the problem, and I have attached a pic of the firing pin marks from both guns, again, not resulting from the hammer in any way. I checked the headspace on her bolt and it seems proper (.043), so I am thinking that the firing pin may be too long at 3.3970 inches OAL? Could the fix simply be to trim the firing pin?

Recovered LIVE rounds from the Maple:



Recovered casings from her gun, fired by bolt impact while hammer was not present in gun. Notice how the case edge seems to have been hit by the bolt itself and ruptured upon ignition, as well as being marked by the firing pin:



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Old 05-18-2016, 05:40 PM
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Always nice to see a stock I made in action. Looks like a nice setup you have going there.
Do you have a factory bolt that you could try? I hope you can get it sorted out. Looks somewhat unsafe right now by the looks of those casings.
Really should try a factory bolt and see if that solves the problem. Maybe need to send your aftermarket one back to have them check it out. I know he makes good stuff but it's always possible you got one that's out of spec.
Do live rounds seat all the way in the barrel chamber as they should? Chamber clean?
I'm sure you'll get it sorted out but really need to do a little trial and error To figure things out. Be super careful chambering rounds in that thing like it is.
If you don't have another bolt to try, I'm sure you could mail yours back for cheap explaining what's going on and have them check to see if it is in spec.
Let us know if you get it figured out.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:00 PM
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Everyone loves this stock, great job! And thanks for your concern, guys - I am pursuing a fix with some help from the Action forum - seems like some kind of bolt/receiver interplay issue more than an actual defect. Like Vincent was saying - mixing parts is like opening a can of worms. No manufacturer or part clearly at fault, just some possible disagreement between metal surfaces that have some variable tolerances
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:42 PM
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I think you are doing this with magazine in place right? Years ago here we found out the hard way that shooting a 10/22 with out the mag is a very bad idea. Several members have been injured when a case let go with no mag in place and all the nasty stuff when straight down into the hand of the shooter. You are MUCH more likely to rupture a case with no mag in place.

The mag helps support the case in some way. As you know the primary ejector is the little step in the bolt so the mag pretty much has to touch the bolt. The experimenting we did 10 years or so ago showed the bolt tips down in the front with no mag.

VERY bad idea to ever chamber a round with out a mag in place!!
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Old 05-19-2016, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
I think you are doing this with magazine in place right? Years ago here we found out the hard way that shooting a 10/22 with out the mag is a very bad idea. Several members have been injured when a case let go with no mag in place and all the nasty stuff when straight down into the hand of the shooter. You are MUCH more likely to rupture a case with no mag in place.

The mag helps support the case in some way. As you know the primary ejector is the little step in the bolt so the mag pretty much has to touch the bolt. The experimenting we did 10 years or so ago showed the bolt tips down in the front with no mag.

VERY bad idea to ever chamber a round with out a mag in place!!
I think this may be the key - the mag will keep the bolt from hitting the case rim...but still, my other guns don't do this and I wish these two were't so sensitive
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:13 PM
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I think this may be the key - the mag will keep the bolt from hitting the case rim...but still, my other guns don't do this and I wish these two were't so sensitive

If being safe with a mag in place I would just be happy with that. It does sound like stacked tolerances.....or maybe unstacked tolerances in this case!
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:22 AM
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LOL yeah I am honestly not too worried about the issue of the bolt crushing the rim - I can assume that's an unfortunate but unique interplay of the JWH bolt and the receiver. BUT the fact that the firing pins in two such bolts can apparently hit the primers without the help of a hammer makes me worried. I kind of want to go and test my other guns that have JWH bolts and see if they all do this I would be surprised if their firing pins were that much heavier or their return springs that much weaker, so maybe OEM bolts would do the same if they had reduced headspace.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:27 AM
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LOL yeah I am honestly not too worried about the issue of the bolt crushing the rim - I can assume that's an unfortunate but unique interplay of the JWH bolt and the receiver. BUT the fact that the firing pins in two such bolts can apparently hit the primers without the help of a hammer makes me worried. I kind of want to go and test my other guns that have JWH bolts and see if they all do this I would be surprised if their firing pins were that much heavier or their return springs that much weaker, so maybe OEM bolts would do the same if they had reduced headspace.
I have five Ruger Bolts that have been adjusted for head space and they have no such problem. I did the first two myself as well as pinning them. I forget where I saw it but there is a Spec for firing pin protrusion when they are pressed flush with the rear of the bolt. Will have to see if we can find it. QUE probably knows it as he did many many Ruger bolt tune ups. We could ask him I am sure. I will contact hi and ask him to comment on this thread.
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-16-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 10-18-2016, 10:34 PM
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Beautiful gun! I'd love to hear more about how you finished the stock. I have an unfinished maple and can't quite decide how I want to finish it. I'd love to keep it blonde like yours.
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