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  #16  
Old 04-05-2014, 02:25 AM
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDoubleJ

OP - That BB will come out. Every one of mine did. Hammer a roll pin in there like shown above, make sure everything is crazy clean, and glob a dab of JB weld on top, let it cure, and file it smooth. All my rifles save my newest one (Que'd) have the roll pin, and none have moved even the smallest bit.
Yes, I agree, the roll pin will stay spring tensioned in place better than the hammer'd in filed BB. Good suggestion on the dab of JB weld to help support and further adhere the split roll pin in place. Shouldn't ever come out unless you dug out the JB weld (or torch liquified it) and then levered the pin out on purpose for some reason,....but shouldn't even be a need to do that. A new firing pin will either fit right under it, or else you can file a teeny off the top of the firing pin for clearance on future firing pin/firing pin retraction spring,... installations.



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  #17  
Old 04-05-2014, 03:13 AM
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Oh poo!

I have sitting in front of me a M.A. Ford Hi-Roc spade tip straight flute drill that has drilled at least 10 bolts and as long as you keep the chips cleaned out they do not have any problems and did as well on the last as it did the first. Use the correct tool and you will be fine. This one was $12 when I bought it and it's brother 6-7 years ago from J.T Machine on line.

DO NOT use some twist drill to do the job. I did the first time but I cheated and used a diamond tip Dremel bit to get through the first layer and then my gold cobalt twist drill could finish the hole.

I actually drill an interference fit so the firing pin will not fit under the crosspin. Then I file or stone the top of the FP until if barely makes it under the pin. This is easier that trying to perfectly locate the hole for a microscopic fit.

If you are really smart you send the bolt to QUE or Randy at CPC for crosspin, headspace, firing pin tip mod, extractor check and if you are going to shoot Standard Velocity only radius the rear of the bolt or a lesser radius if you may be shooting H.V.

One issue with the roll pin is if it is really close to the bolt you are rubbing the FP on a lot more metal that a simple crosspin. If it is not really close than it is not doing what you want it to do.

The BB is just a plain bad idea. Back when people were trying to get around what we were doing with crosspins a couple rifles were dinged shooting with a loose steel BB in the action.

Do it right the first time. Spend $12 or send it to the guys that really do it right
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  #18  
Old 04-05-2014, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maricopa Smitty View Post
Neat idea!

Has anyone been able to actually quantify the problems with the un-pinned or un-staked firing pin? By that I mean measuring or recording what happens before and after the 'operation', with no other variables involved to muddy the waters. Anecdotally I'm aware of the 'goodness' that pinning the FP adds, but I've never seen specific evidence.
In 2000 I had given up on my 1976 10/22(I bought new and had to have going on at least 90,000 rds and bought a TC Classic.

Then I found this place and a VQ eztractor solve my jams. But I knew it did not shoot nearly as well as it once had and one shot would go pop, the next BANG and the one after that would be an even softer pop. I started collecting shells and noticed no two in a row were struck by the FP in the same place and some were WAY out at the edge. I bought it a new FP and it got slightly better but not nearly enough. When I did my first crude cross pin it did away with all of that. They all sounded the same. Big difference
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  #19  
Old 04-05-2014, 04:41 AM
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maricopa Smitty View Post
Neat idea!

Has anyone been able to actually quantify the problems with the un-pinned or un-staked firing pin? By that I mean measuring or recording what happens before and after the 'operation', with no other variables involved to muddy the waters. Anecdotally I'm aware of the 'goodness' that pinning the FP adds, but I've never seen specific evidence.


If you're asking about a 10/22 firing hundreds of comparison shots between a properly secured firing pin and one that is just factory staked, to determine what difference that would make in operation, and then firing them slowly and then rapidly and evaluate which one functioned better....I can give you some experience from firing thousands of rounds doing just that.

The 10/22's firing pin can be levered upward by its retaining crosspin acting under the forces of recoiling rearward and spring tension flying forward can create a situation where the firing pin can be in a raised position so it does not contact the cartridge rim when the hammer falls on the firing pin, or else it give light primer strikes on the very outmost edge of the cartridge rim. This is usually not that big a problem if slow or even moderate speed firing is done (as long as the rifle is kept right side up so gravity can drop the firing pin down so it moved perfectly forward to strike the cartridge rim). But it can and for me has on occasion become a problem with normal rapid firing or very rapid firing such as crank firing or bumpfiring. And both at slower and faster crank firing speeds.

What happens is when the bolt and firing pin recoil rearward, the firing pin is able push back on its retaining cross pin, which that rearward force can cause a levering of the firing pin upwards. And since the firing pin can rotate a bit on its retaining cross pin, when the bolt goes back forward again the firing pin can raise up again under the forward force. It's about inertia and leverage. That factory "stake" on top of the bolt just is inadequate. It hold the firing pin from falling out, but it lets it fly up under high forward and rearward speeds.

In firing my crankfire 10-22's at slow, normal/moderate firing rates I sometimes had failures to fire, but not real often.


However rapid crank fire was a different story. I believe in designing it that Ruger never intended it to be fired as fast as the system can operate (you can overrun it with over cranking which will cause a jam, or failure to fire). And what happens is there is no time lag for the firing pin to gravity "settle down" from its possible up and down movement, like there would be if you were just slow plinking or rabbit hunting, and the system is running so fast that before the firing pin can come back down from rising up....the hammer has fallen and struck the firing pin which goes forward but is raised too high to contact the cartridge rim. I've fired many thousands of rounds through all three of my 10/22 crank fire prototypes and I have found that when I stake down the front of the firing pin using the BB fix, that it vastly decreases my light primer strikes and overall failures to fire shots,....especially when I am crank firing very rapidly.

The same is true when I bumpfire my 10/22 in my springless Akins Accelerator version 2 stock ("AA2"). That's an only out since Feb 2014 GSG 110 rd drum in it. Not a 50 rd.



Now using my AA2 bumpfire stock, there isn't as much possible difference in time between shots like there can be on my crank fires. But I can slow down or speed up my cyclic rate by adjusting how much tension I exert forwardly upon the forward grip. So I can adjust its cyclic rate some by exerting more or less tension upon the forward grip. Pushing the forward grip harder increases the cyclic rate. Less tension decreases the cyclic rate. But you can't push too hard or you'll outrun the gun's maximum operational speed possible, and then you get hammer follow along with a bolt that in essence is no longer just making one rearward and forward movement, but a bolt and firing pin that is basically constantly in forward and rearward motion akin to the piston in an engine. Don't push hard enough and it won't bumpfire. It's a learned "touch" technique where as you are firing if you change your pressure on the forward grip you can hear the change in cyclic rate.

That kind of running the operating system to its maximum operational speed limits, causes the firing pin to be in a constant forward and backward pistoning movement just like an engine, and remember the firing pin levering upward on its retainer cross pin without any appreciable time lag between shots for the firing pin to settle down, and the hammer hits the firing pin as fast as the rifle's operating system will allow it to operate and thus the hammer hit the firing pin before the firing pin can fall downward to be aligned with the cartridge rim. So doing the BB fix/split roll pin/cross pin...fix, eliminates any raising of the firing pin and has vastly decreased light primer strikes and failures to fire when bumpfiring for me. Same in rapid crank firing.

Plus as other posters have mentioned, CONSISTENCY is the key to accuracy. It is important to good operation of the gun too. Hitting the primer in the same spot each and every time, is good for consistency and consistency equals greater accuracy. So it's a good idea for slow fire too. But a must have for me with the kind of rapid firing I like to do.

I have a friend who is developing a quick install (no pins or anything to take out, it just snaps in place) 10/22 sear disconnector that will prevent the hammer from falling until the bolt is fully forward and that prevents hammer follow as well as prevents light primer strikes and failures to fire . He plans on marketing them at some time in the future and I'll be getting some from him as soon as he gets them made. But that's another story.

Anyway, that's been my experience in crank firing and bumpfiring many thousands of rounds thru my 10/22's and holding down the front of the firing pin is something done on all my 10/22's. I've been using the BB fix, but I'm going to change them all over to split roll pins with J&B Weld epoxy.



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  #20  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:11 AM
jb1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman46g View Post
As i see it with the charging handle sitting across the top of the bolt there isn't any up and down movement in the firing pin or i am missing something .
You're not missing anything, as I see it. Everyone else seems to be ignoring you.
  #21  
Old 04-05-2014, 10:06 AM
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It seems likely the thing was designed that way but then stack a few tolerances and in the real world it don’t always work.
  #22  
Old 04-05-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Akins View Post

In firing my crankfire 10-22's at slow, normal/moderate firing rates I sometimes had failures to fire, but not real often.


Thats a NICE collection!!!
  #23  
Old 04-05-2014, 05:20 PM
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What size roll pins? Any technique or tips for getting them into place? Hardware stores carry them?

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  #24  
Old 04-05-2014, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 805tinkerer View Post
What size roll pins? Any technique or tips for getting them into place? Hardware stores carry them?

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The ones that fit...

Yes they do...about any Hardware store.

Cut to length..smooth the under side/clean up the burrs...tap them in the slot (first whack is critical otherwise they end up somewhere on the floor..then tap them gently with a small (1/8") punch till it gets about .05ish above the FP..DO NOT tap it tight against the FP.

.
.

Don't have one in hand right now...will get you a measurement by Monday...
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  #25  
Old 04-05-2014, 05:46 PM
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Thanks. Didn't want to have to take bolt in... guess I could buy a few different sizes, and return the ones I don't use

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  #26  
Old 04-05-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 805tinkerer View Post
Thanks. Didn't want to have to take bolt in... guess I could buy a few different sizes, and return the ones I don't use

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1/16" x 3/8" IIRC..will check that.
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  #27  
Old 04-05-2014, 05:54 PM
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Ty

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  #28  
Old 04-05-2014, 07:07 PM
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Ok, so 1/16 not the right size, not is 5/32. Bolt is out, guess it's going with me to the hardware store.

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  #29  
Old 04-05-2014, 07:58 PM
Maricopa Smitty
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Bill Akins -

Thanks for your thorough explanation. I have done my digging through the archives here, but all I had found previously was that the pinning (et al) mod simply improved consistency. Great, I understand that, in my biz we frequently "build in goodness" to our products, but I was looking for something more concrete. Your explanation showed that you could turn on and turn off the problem with the unconstrained FP - and that's the type of info and "quantification" I was looking for!

Mighty impressive machines you have, too.
  #30  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:31 PM
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805tinkerer
Did you mean 3/32 instead of 5/32ds?
 

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