Safes And RSC's, An Overview - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-13-2013, 08:11 AM
CB900F
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2004
Location: 
Outer Montana
Posts: 
3,745
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Safes And RSC's, An Overview



Log in to see fewer ads
Fella's;

I'm now retired, but I was a professional locksmith and specialized in safe sales. What follows is my take on gun storage containers. Please feel free to PM me with questions.

There is a great dividing line in the home safe industry. On one side lies what the mass marketers call a safe, which U.L. calls an RSC. On the other are the true safes. RSC is an Underwriter’s Laboratory rating for Residential Security Containers. It’s their polite way of saying “tin box”. There is no national construction standard for protective containers. I could scotch tape six of my business cards together, put a pin across a corner & sell it to the public as a “safe” if I cared to do so. My business card “safe” would be an unrated unit. There are many unrated units on the market and they fill a need for a low-cost metal cabinet that locks. However, they should not be thought of as secure. A motivated ten year old could possibly compromise one.

A step up from no rating is the U.L. RSC rating, it stands for Residential Security Container, note: container, not safe. That rating certifies that one individual cannot forcibly enter the test container by using common hand tools for a five minute period. Common hand tools are meant to be a hammer and a heavy screwdriver, no lever length to exceed 18 inches. When you stop & think about it, you shouldn’t feel good relying on the level of construction that produces the RSC rating. However, it must also be said that there are RSC’s and RSC’s. In other words, some units meet the standard and no more, other units do offer better protection than the minimum standard. The difference will almost certainly be reflected in the price, but don’t rely on the price to be the determinant. Believe it or not, there are marketing departments that will price their Superwow Diamond grade RSC right up there with one that does offer protection well above the minimum. The problem being that the Superwow Diamond is functionally little better than a tin box, but not much.

The next step up is a B level safe. To be rated as a safe by U.L., all six sides have to be ” steel plate as a minimum. A U.L. group II lock must also be used. In all quality B level safes, the door is ” plate. Beyond that are C level safes, and the single construction criteria that must be met is that the thickness of the steel is doubled. Beyond the C, there are E, and F ratings. There is also another rating system that rates TL15, TL30, TL30X6, TLTR15, etc. That rating system, however, is not directly comparable with the B, C, etc. rating system. I’d be glad to explain the TL specs if someone needs to know, but the information is readily available on the net.

I know of only three manufacturers that are producing true safes for the home market. They are: AMSEC, Brown, and Graffunder. I used to sell AMSEC and Graffunder. All the others; Liberty, Fort Knox, Champion, Browning, Heritage, etc, etc, are invariably RSC’s.

Typical construction of an RSC involves using gauge sheet metal to form the body of the container. The door may, or may not, contain plate steel. If the body is made of sheet metal, frequently the frame that the door bolts lock up behind, is nothing more than that sheet metal folded three or four times. We all know what folding sheet metal does to it’s strength, and it isn’t a good thing. If you want to see a graphic example of the worth of an RSC with this type of frame go to Youtube and bring up the short video “Security On Sale”. True safes use plate steel frames.

Many RSC’s offer what seems to be impressive fire protection. Omega Laboratories, the BTU test, and Pyro 3000 ratings, tests in furnaces with a public audience, and so forth. The only fire certification worth paying attention to is the U.L. 1 hour or above. The Great Falls Fire Department tells me that a typical severe home fire can hit temperature’s of 1600 degrees f to above 2000 f, depending on the fuel source(s) and conditions. The U.L. test requires the safe to be placed in the furnace, the gas lit, and the temperature to be brought up to 1700 f, before the 1 hour timer starts. At the end of the hour, the internal transponder is read, and anything that passes is going to read in the 270 – 280 f, range. Cap is 350 f, on any meaningful test. However, the end of the hour is not the end of the U.L. test. At the end of the hour, the gas is shut off, but the safe remains in the sealed furnace until the furnace temperature drops to laboratory ambient, 68 f. At no time during the entire ramp-up, burn, or cool-down cycle can the internal temperature of the test container exceed 350 f. And that’s what it takes for the contents of a safe to survive a totally involved, burn it to the ground, house fire. Just ask the folks in the San Diego area if that can’t happen.

Speaking of which, where’s the pictures from the RSC makers of the contents of their “safes” that went through the San Diego fires of 2007? There were many million plus dollar homes that burned. You know that there were home safes involved. Quite the advertising coup if you can show pictures of a “MasterIron” safe’s unharmed contents & the house is a total ruin. I have pictures, provided by a line I sold, proving that it’s not an impossible task to accomplish. But, in those instances, the container was a true safe, not an RSC.

Thermal protection is not rocket science. If you put thicker and denser material between the heat source and the contents to be protected, you will get better protection. True safes weigh significantly more than RSC’s, and for good reason. They use plate steel for the body. They frequently use some sort of concrete mixture for the insulation. Juxtapose that against the sheet metal exterior skin and layers of sheet rock frequently used by RSC makers. Take the paper off the insulation & call it “fire rock”, it’s gypsum wallboard by any name. Sheet rock is a good flame barrier, but it’s not dense enough to be a good heat sink. If you put enough layers of it together to get a decent thermal rating, you’ve seriously shrunk the interior volume of the container. You can’t win. Beware other advertising claims that rate the insulation, but don’t give you a time/temp specification, as does U.L., for the test procedure. You can’t make a meaningful comparison of fire ratings until and unless you know the exact test procedures for all cases being compared. Funny thing, it’s very hard to get those test procedures from anybody but Underwriter’s Laboratories.

Many a “safe” salesman will tell you that the 1200 f/30 minute rating of their wonderbox is just fine, as the average home fire is 1200 degrees f. The kicker word is average. Included are the greasy rag fire in the garage, or the little ‘put the lid on it’ grease fire in the kitchen. But when you get a serious fire, you can get well above 1200 degrees f. Forget that at your own risk.


If you do a thorough examination of the typical RSC, it’s quite likely you’ll find a rubber plug in the top, or the base. Production line RSC’s frequently compromise their structural integrity & put that hole in the unit so it can easily be hung from a hook as it goes down the assembly line. And if the hole’s in the base, it may not be plugged. The honest-to-steel safe may also have a hole, but it’ll be in the floor plate. It’s there so the unit can be bolted to the structure it’s in. In virtually all U.L. rated safes, that hole will be sealed by a solid steel plug. Therefore, if the owner does not want to bolt it down, the integrity is not compromised.

Hinges: Interior hinges are not, repeat NOT, a good thing. Avoid them like the plague. Interior hinges are found in RSC’s. The body of an RSC is made of formed sheet metal. Usually 10 to 16 gauge sheet metal. Distort that tin box & the hinges don’t line up correctly anymore. When the hinges don’t line up correctly, the owner of the unit is not, repeat NOT, happy. You cannot pay me enough to share your pain. I will not fix that problem, and I will tell you; “You should have done your research before you bought that thing”.

Then there’s the issue of capacity. Always, if at all possible, buy the biggest unit you can afford. It’s much less expensive in the long run to buy one safe, rather than either buying a second safe, or selling & buying larger. I know this from personal experience. Then there’s the slot count. Never count on getting one gun in every slot – ain’t gonna happen. As a rule of thumb, don’t expect to get more than 75 to 80 percent usage of slots. In other words, if you buy a unit with 36 slots for guns, you’re actually only going to get around 27 to 28 guns stored in them. That’s assuming that desperate measures haven’t been taken; things like storing every other gun muzzle down, things like that. Then there’s the folk who have gutted their safe, and just put each gun in a sock & stack ‘em in there willy-nilly. It, sorta, works, but it’s a mess to observe and a worse one to get the gun out you want.

If you can, realistically project your needs and buy accordingly. That most particularly includes the interior layout. Convertible interiors work well, they allow the gun storage capacity to grow along with the size of your collection. On the other hand, that also means that the other-than-gun stuff has to find a new home. Always choose a light color for the interior. Safes are caves, they suck light in and don’t return it. Light colored cloth can really help visibility in the interior. On the same note, if you need lights in the interior, you’re accepting a hole in the safe to run the wire through. Which means you’re compromising the security and fire protection. If you do run wire, seal the hole with high-temp RTV goo, it really does help.

Safes cost more money than RSC’s. However, the subject of home safes certainly seems to be an excellent example of the rule of 80/20. A high-end RSC will cost about 80% as much as a true safe. It will give about 20% of the protection. It’s a shame I can’t mention brand names without the possibility of vengeful corporate lawyers. But do know this, a decal of an elk in the morning doesn’t add a thing to the protective ability of the unit in question. Believe me, there are a couple of real triumph’s of advertising over substance out there.

900F

Last edited by CB900F; 02-07-2014 at 12:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-13-2013, 09:32 AM
dotchief
Law Enforcement Officer NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2011
Location: 
Indiana
Posts: 
722
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
House Fire

900F:

Two years ago my brother's ranch house burned to the ground. All he had left of his life would fit in two five-gallon buckets. It was awful!

The "safe" that contained all our Father's guns (passed on) was located in the basement. When the house caught fire, the intense heat burned the entire first floor. After burning through the floors, the entire house collapsed into the basement. You guessed it, right onto the safe!

His house sits some 100 yards from the road on 105 acres. The house burned for about two hours before someone noticed it. Like most people, he was at work. When it was over, every pistol and every rifle that was in the "safe" burned. They were all lost! The fire was so intense, the genuine silver coin bucket my brother kept revealed all the coins were melted together! Now that's hot, considering the bucket was stainless steel.

I love you info on safes or should I say RSC's! GREAT!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-13-2013, 01:13 PM
j.r. guerra in s. texas

Join Date: 
Dec 2003
Location: 
deep south Texas
Posts: 
12,667
TPC Rating: 
100% (42)
Very good information to know CB900F . . .

. . . we appreciate the time and effort it took for you to post that for us. I know a little about safes, but from the quick read I gave the above, I definitely need a 'refresher course'

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 12-13-2013, 01:35 PM
COW 54's Avatar
COW 54
US Army Disabled American Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2009
Location: 
Upper Left Coast
Posts: 
4,208
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Very informative and relevant for me, being in the process of trying to find a new safe... a GOOD safe!

Thanks for the info!!

__________________
Use a lid on your coffee cup. It keeps flying brass out of your beverage!

Lizard People; Vietnam Vet; NRA Life Member; NRA Distinguished Expert Rifle; NRA Instructor Pistol
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-13-2013, 07:00 PM
Vincent's Avatar
Vincent
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Moderator
Join Date: 
May 2002
Location: 
Middle TN
Posts: 
36,972
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Then there are those of us that simply can not afford a true safe. The dog works for keeping the metal priers at bay but she is going to burn with the guns if the place catches on fire.

Just life in the real world
__________________
Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzOn6GqNFdk

Last edited by Vincent; 12-14-2013 at 08:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-13-2013, 07:56 PM
CB900F
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2004
Location: 
Outer Montana
Posts: 
3,745
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Vincent;

Anything is better than nothing. If you can't afford a true safe at present, get what you can afford. But, in doing that, pay for what offers the most protection not what has the most gew-gaws. I've even seen four 2.5 gallon jugs filled with water on top of the basic metal box. They pretty much completely covered the top, and who knows, may in a pinch be just enough to keep it from being a total loss inside.

900F
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2013, 09:20 AM
Rat458's Avatar
Rat458
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Sep 2012
Location: 
Tacoma,Wa
Posts: 
354
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Thanks for a simple explanation of the difference between a safe and a box.
I was surprised when I went shopping for a safe when I asked about the waterproofness.
Safes are not designed to be waterproof.
Has to do with the seal material.
Was told to put a document box in the safe if you want to protect your photos or papers.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-14-2013, 09:42 AM
rayjay

Join Date: 
May 2007
Posts: 
2,004
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB900F View Post
Vincent;

Anything is better than nothing. If you can't afford a true safe at present, get what you can afford. 900F
This !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It burns me up when people post stories about their guns being stolen. IMO, it's every gun owners responsibility to do all he can to keep his guns from being stolen. Hiding them under the bed doesn't cut it. $500 will get you something that will at least slow the crooks down. Most won't mess with it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-14-2013, 11:44 AM
CB900F
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2004
Location: 
Outer Montana
Posts: 
3,745
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Fella's;

Due to a request, I'm going to post a synopsis of the Underwriter's Laboratory TLTR ratings.

TL is a tool resistance rating and TR is a torch resistance rating. If you see a safe rated "TL15", that means the door, and the door only, has passed a 15 minute tool attack. If the safe were rated "TL15X6", then all six sides were tested & it passed. Tools mean virtually anything hand portable. The time rated is the time that the safe is actually under physical attack. For instance, if the test technician feels the drill bit he's using is getting dull and changes it for a new one, the time the drill is not actually drilling the safe during the change, does not count against the 15 minute time limit. If the tech sits back & thinks about his attack for five full minutes, that does not count either.

The TR rating is an attempt to compromise the safe using a torch, and basically, the same rules apply.

The common time limits are 15 and 30 minutes. Therefore, if you have a TLTR30X6 safe, you've got one helluva unit. If it's of any size, (for our purposes meaning able to hold long guns in some quantity), the new price was about the same as a new family 4-door sedan. Also, the U.L. techs that perform the tests aren't just pulled off the street, they know what they're doing, and what the safe they're working on is. Their ability to forcibly open a safe is several orders of magnitude above "Joe Burglar" who's going to try to pop your safe. As for technical questions concerning specific tools or gasses for the torch, or torch alternatives, please go to the official U.L. website, the information is there.

If you go shopping in the right places, it's possible to find a used commercial safe for a pretty decent price in comparison to it's new cost. But, bear in mind that delivery is probably not going to be free, and if you tell 'em you want it downstairs in the basement the delivery crew will exit laughing. And then send you a bill for wasting their time.
As a concrete example, the shop I used to work for has an AMSEC commercial safe in store at the time I'm writing this. If I remember correctly, it's a TL30 with a 2 hour fire rating & weighs about 2500 - 3000 lbs. It's been refurbished, new lock, lockworks inspected, painted, and local delivery at ground level included, $7,500.00.

As a point of comparison, any RSC on the market will not even approach these ratings. Go to Youtube & look up the video "Security On Sale", & observe it closely a couple of times. You'll see that the two guys are obviously not rehearsed in their movement patterns, they waste time. Yet they pop the door of the unit in something like one minute and 40-some seconds. Yes, the unit in the video has been flopped on it's back. And, yes, that gives the "crooks" more leverage. But, all that means in the real world is that the video is short enough to keep your attention while making it's point. If the unit were upright & bolted, they'd still get in, it'd just take a little longer but probably still under ten minutes. You, however, wouldn't want to sit through ten minutes of them prying on it, and if you did, probably wouldn't be in a mood to hear the message the nice man tries to sell you on.

900F

Last edited by CB900F; 12-14-2013 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-14-2013, 12:56 PM
bearcatter's Avatar
bearcatter

Join Date: 
May 2013
Location: 
VA
Posts: 
3,707
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
So many "home safes" and document boxes are basically plastic shells filled with concrete. I've always wondered how they sell even one of them, but the box info always makes then sound wonderful, and people are pretty gullible.

My dad retired from 40 years on the fire department. His info was that a house fire can reach 4000 F in the right circumstances, and basements get hotter than the house above. The concrete walls and surrounding earth make them a very well insulated oven. With the heat being above, really more of a broiler!

Based on his experience, the best place in my home is where a safe won't fit. I have two fireplaces, one above the other. One is behind an upstairs closet. Having a safe against the back wall of that closet, with the closet door shut, would give it extra protection in a fire. Heavy masonry behind it, and closed air space around it.

Luckily being in the city, fire response averages 7 minutes and they usually have a house fire out 15 minutes after their feet hit the ground.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-14-2013, 01:19 PM
All4fun
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2007
Location: 
Scripps Ranch.... It's mostly nice here.
Posts: 
3,953
TPC Rating: 
100% (71)
900F, Thank you for the excellent information and for your insight.

I would be interested in your thoughts on electronic vs. dial locks as discussed here:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...s-on-gunsafes/

Thanks in advance,
-Dave

~~~
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-14-2013, 02:56 PM
CB900F
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2004
Location: 
Outer Montana
Posts: 
3,745
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
All4fun;

That's a good article with a lot of useful information. As for my personal take on your question, if you want ease of entry, or require speedy entry, get a good electronic lock. If you need long term worry free reliability, get a good manual dial lock. Notice in both cases I said get a good one. I do realize that the average consumer doesn't know how to tell the difference between a quality lock, either electronic or manual, and others ranging from sub-par to outright junk.

Manual dial locks come in several different varieties, most of which are totally not needed in home or small business enviroments. Manipulation proof class 1 locks with wheels that are X-ray transparent are available, but are usually found in CIA installations, not Bob's Burger Barn. Bob has better things to do with his money & so do you. Therefore, I'm going to cut the field to two. They are wheel pack locks and the combination S&G 6730 type.

The wheel pack manual combination dial lock is cheap to produce and rather difficult to change the combo on. Frequently there are a limited, to an extremely limited, number of possible combinations available. Possible combinations are not random variable, there are X number of possibilities and that's it. To change, the locksmith has to enter the safe, remove the back of the door, and depending on the circumstances, may have to remove the lock from the safe in order to change the combination. The smith will have to partially disassemble the lock to effect the combo change, and then of course, reassemble. It's a PIA, takes time, and you pay for it. These type of manual combination locks are found on the least expensive containers on the market. Frequently they do not adhere to the U.L. bolt pattern either. That means that changing the wheel pack lock for a good one becomes yet more difficult to practically impossible. Many internal parts can be, and frequently are, base metal or plastic. Inexpensive plastic.

PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS: Also, I have noticed that at first glance the logo on the face of the lock will appear to be a known U.S. brand such the L&G or S&G of LaGard or Sargent Greenleaf. Close examination usually shows that there is a difference, albeit a small one. IMHO anything is better than nothing, but some of this outright cwap gets pretty dmn close to nothing.

The combination change S&G 6730, which ran out of it's basic patent a loooong time ago, is made by several reputable American manufacturers such as, of course, S&G, LaGard, Kaba, and AMSEC. This type of manual combination lock does not have to be disassembled in order to change the combination. Depending on the manufacturer's choice, the rear of the safe door may, or may not, have to come off. This type of combo change can be done by a qualified locksmith in minutes. Disregarding any other considerations, such as the back of the door removal, it shouldn't take a good smith any longer than five minutes to change and test the new combination.

When informing the locksmith of your desired new combo there are a couple of rules to pay attention to, to avoid possible problems. A. Every combo number should be at least ten digits from another. B. The last number should not lie in the 80-0-20 quadrant of the dial. I differ a bit with the referenced article in that particular and I'll stick to my guns on it. C. Be creative with your new combo, don't use phone, address, birthdates, or SSN's, for the number set. Example, what was the year of the first new car you bought? Yeah, a 1998. First # is 98. Year you got married - 1979. Second number is 79. You bought this house last year, OK, third number is 14, but reverse it to 41. All stuff that should be easy to remember, but not easy to derive from common information.

Electronic locks have just as wide a quality spectrum as do mechanicals, and for the same reasons, price point being the major one. Speaking from experience, I don't trust an offshore made electronic lock. And, of the U.S. brands I personally prefer the LaGard and have one on my personal Graffunder safe. I have seen electronic locks so cheap that if the smaller "Home Security Cabinet" were dropped the correct way on a hard surface, the door would open without damaging the lock. Cheap electronic locks also may use a capacitor to power the unit while changing the battery. Exceed the time that the capacitor can supply juice to the brain and you get a brain-dead lock. Then the fun begins.

There are good reasons to have an electronic lock on a home safe, speed of entry being the most common. This type of lock also offers some options that most mechanical dial locks don't. You can, with some of them, opt for a time delay. In that case you dial the combo, but the door does not open for X number of minutes. This is meant to deter a thief who has forced an employee to open the safe. There's no shortcut available to the employee, or you, either. It also uses up the battery faster. Electronic locks can give you an audit trail. Because of the vast number of combo's available, each user can have a discrete number to themselves, and whatever number opens the safe is recorded, frequently with the time of opening attached. And, electronic locks are fairly easy for the owner to change the combo on it. Just do it with the door open. Do it with the door open! Do it with the door open!! And test it three times before you shut the door & lock it.

A good electronic lock will have a burn memory of the combination. That avoids the situation we covered above with a cheap capacitor lock. With a burn memory, you could remove the battery(s), go around the world and take 80 days, return home, replace the battery(s), and open the safe with no problem. Which brings us to the placement of the battery(s) in the safe. Most good electronic locks will have the battery(s) under the dial face & the brain behind the door. Nothing wrong with that. Some of the locks will have two batterys, some only one, and it's really not an issue one way or the other. Some electronic locks will have the battery pack behind the door. Though usually not in locks intended for home use. If you're contemplating buying a safe with that type of electronic lock, I'll strongly suggest contacting an ALOA locksmith & getting their take on it before you do so.

ALOA is the U.S. professional locksmith's organization. As the AMA is to motorcycle racers (and some other oddball group too, I think ) ALOA is to locksmith's. Within ALOA is the sub-set of SAVTA, the Save And Vault Technicians Association. These are the guys you want working on your safe. They are also the guys you want moving your safe if it's a serious safe.

As always, at the first sign of trouble with your safe lock, contact a locksmith. If possible don't shut & lock the door if you had a hard time opening the door for whatever reason. You can save yourself a remarkable amount of money if you follow that advice. If you don't, locksmith gets to buy a new toy - and I've bought a fair number of guns without affecting the household budget in the least. You've been warned.

900F

Last edited by CB900F; 01-18-2015 at 04:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-14-2013, 04:06 PM
Granite3
National Guard Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2009
Location: 
Atlanta
Posts: 
1,368
TPC Rating: 
100% (5)
My main safe is a retrofitted Diebold that was removed from a bank.

Double door and weighs over 3000 lbs. Had a rollback car hauler deliver it and ease it upright in my garage.

Had to create my own interior, but I do not worry about burglary or fire with it.

Thanks for the good info.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-14-2013, 05:41 PM
All4fun
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2007
Location: 
Scripps Ranch.... It's mostly nice here.
Posts: 
3,953
TPC Rating: 
100% (71)
Thanks 900F. Outstanding and very helpful response.

~~~
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-15-2013, 08:06 AM
Vee3

Join Date: 
Jun 2005
Posts: 
1,764
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
~20 years ago a friend of mine bought three old ATMs as scrap. They were 3/8" continuously welded stainless plate all around. Had S&G locks IIRC. He paid me to cut stainless plates to weld into various openings that were left after the electronic stuff was removed.

They were ~24" square x 48" high. Wish like hell I'd got one from him. They were super sturdy. He was willing to give me one of the three for the plates I made for him but I needed cash at the time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x