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  #1  
Old 01-14-2006, 01:30 PM
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SuperStock 22's



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As many of you know I, among others, have been pushing for a new class of 10/22. Many of our members have built "ultimates" over the years to the point of it being almost boring. No offense meant here but as I saw posted recently " anybody with an allan wrench, a screwdriver and a soft hammer can build and Ultimate" and while that may be over simplified it is somewhat true. And what do you get? A somewhat impractical, heavy, accurate semi auto with a stock that looks like the loser in an old fashion taffy pull. So lets answer a few questions first the most obvious being:

Why SuperStock?
1. A number of reasons, First I saw too many really neat old walnut stocked, metal butt plated vintage 10/22's being torn apart to build an Ultimate, If you insist on building these (and there is NOTHING wrong with building one) PLEASE don't use cool old vintage guns to do it.

2. I'm not sure how much you learn bolting together an Ultimate. You will learn much more about what makes a rifle shoot well by building a SuperStock. Alot of what you are given in a "Kit" gun you will need to figure out in a SuperStock.

3. Cost. I am disabled and money is short. I would guess there are a number of folks here that don't have an over abundance of money. When you build an SuperStock it is very easy to spend $10 here and $25 there instead of having to come up with larger chunks of money at a time (Stock $$$$, Barrel$$$$) Now I'm sure that some of you will invent ways to spend just as much on your SuperStock as any Ultimate BUT you don't HAVE to and you can do it in smaller chunks. Many things on a SuperStock will be practically free if you are handy at all and even those among you that are NOT that handy we have a number of folks like sawdust and Skeeter and others (even myself ) That will be MORE than willing to share their knowledge.

4A. Rules.........not many. I'm not sure we even WANT this to be a competitive class although that is open for discussion. One thing that if I am going to be part of the leadership on this that I am going to INSIST on is that ALL RFC rules are followed in the posting and that we treat each other like ladies and gentlemen. We will NOT get into name calling and bickering if we disagree. The panic button ! will get pushed if you get nasty.

4B. Rules.... What is a SuperStock? What rules do we need. Obviously if it is a Competitive RFC Email Class than more strict rules may be needed. But most of us will be building a very practical squirrel gun, Rabbit blaster, paper puncher or plinker deluxe. Lets keep this fun with as few rules as is possible.....but that is just MY opinion. What is yours? What do you think? Where do YOU want this to go?

5. The guns. What do you think? I think if it started life as a 10/22 it is in. Carbine, Rifle, Compact, All weather, Wally World Special.....who cares? Here's a thought....how about our brothers and sisters with Marlin 60,70, 75 are they in? Can they play the SuperStock game? WHY NOT? Or just Rugers? SuperStock? Why not? I personally see NO reason the make this a one gun class. Do you? If so, why?

6. Do we need a forum for this? Some of you are already pushing hard to have a place for our NEW CLASS. What does SUPPORT and ADMIN think? would it be a burden on them. Can somebody help them with that end. I have free time and if needed could help with this forum to get it off the ground and maintained.

I hope you have noticed that for the most part I have NOT said "This how it will be" because this is NOT mine....IT is OURS. Lets do something fun, not controversial, together. Let's infest it with all the GOOD things that RFC is. Let's help each other build a fun bunch of cool little rifles and have great time doing it. Let's not forget our Sponsors either. They help us keep RFC going so let's get them involved. Okay.....there it is...........

EDIT: Change name from SuperStock 10/22 to SuperStock to better reflect the emphasis of this thread.
SuperStock
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2006, 01:52 PM
running boar

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I think it is a great idea and I would be interested in entering a friendly super stock arms race. I don't think the 96/22s should be allowed in though, autos only, and no parts that aren't OEM.

Sounds like a lot of fun
  #3  
Old 01-14-2006, 02:27 PM
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One of the best ways to get your "superstock" 10-22 would be to send your stock rifle to Randy at Connecticut Precision Chambering (CPC). He mills a bit off the breech end of the barrel, recuts a precision square to the bore match chamber, recrowns the barrel properly, and if you do the complete "tune up" I believe it also includes a trigger job and bolt face squaring with headspace properly set. Possibly a little bedding job, I haven't read up on that in a long time, so best look up CPC and make sure what he does exactly. No aftermarket parts, and I bet the results are nothing short of excellent. One of my problems with using OEM parts though is that I don't like the factory setup. Take the stock, the length of pull is too short and the comb too low for me. The only way to properly fix that is to replace the stock. And the barrel, I don't like short stubby 18-1/2'' barrels, or even the 20'' on the non carbine model. I prefer a 22'' medium contour barrel with no iron sights. There goes the factory barrel. Years ago I got into the 10-22 rat race, and spent a bunch of money, like so many people do. I finally hit the ultimate, a Volquartsen Grey Ghost, built by VQ, not a homebrew gun. After a little while it struck me that I just didn't like big stainless bull barrels and swoopy looking plywood stocks. I sold the gun off and got away from buying guns that just weren't what I really want, and that required replacing everything but the action body to get that way. By the time you spend what it takes to get the trigger right, a new nice stock and a good accurate barrel setup and bedding done right, you've easily spent enough to have bought a Kimber/Cooper/Anschutz. SO, that makes the "superstock" idea a GOOD one, IF and only IF, a person happens to like the styling and sizing of the original barrels and stocks. You don't spend enough cash to have bought a better gun to start with, and you'd get you're 10-22 with the machine work finished and blueprinted so the rifle could shoot to it's true potential. Conversely, it's quicker and easier for most people to just buy an aftermarket barrel, and slap it on there, and stick in a Volquartsen sear kit. Those two pieces will do 90% of what a full custom rifle will do.
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Old 01-14-2006, 02:34 PM
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I got caught up in the ulitimate B.S. for about a year...what a waste of money for me. I went back to stock and now only have a few upgrades...my rifle is for hunting, not the bench. Great post.
-mwm
  #5  
Old 01-14-2006, 02:47 PM
MtStream

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Just "A Rule or Two" whether the 10/22 or all our rimfire bretheren .
The factory shape/contour stock must be retained
The gun must be comprised of 100% factory parts .
Any tweaking ,polishing & fitting of those parts IS permitted (DIY !)
Hey I think I've said that before !??
Rick
  #6  
Old 01-14-2006, 02:56 PM
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SuperStock..... !!

It will be hard to define, everything can't be stock, or it would not be a SuperStock LOL

One thing for sure, either a CPC treatment of the barrel (might get the entire action done while your at it) or a GM sporter.

I have one I'm building now, I call it a Superstock BUT it's far from anything stock here is what i will be doing

A 10/22 receiver and trigger group anodized black dye
Gatewood Classic set up for iron sights.
The kicker a GM fluted sporter in blue with williams iron sights installed
I'm sure it will get a VQ target hammer along with the JB weld trick
A weaponKraft Buffer

The gun will appear to be a sporter in delux version, in reality anything but stock, it's what I call SuperStock

What will our SuperStock terms be ? I'm thinking anything with a sporter type barrel, and a sporter style stock. I know of a local 10/22 with older walnut stock, barrel band etc, I have been thinking of purchasing, it needs a lot of work, someone has already corrupted the stock with a high gloss urethane.

The one thing that will have to be dealt with in a SuperStock is the chamber, you can do all you want to in a 10/22, if you don't have a bentz chamber (or close) your just throwing your money away. It will have to have the CPC treatment or a GM sporter. If your going to send the barrel to CPC why not get the full tune up ? I enjoy tinkering myself, but they are many many other things you can tweak to get more out of the rifle after Randy has his way with it.

Clint (watching this post)
  #7  
Old 01-14-2006, 03:33 PM
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SuperStocker forum ??

VINCE,

am glad you got the ball rolling. so many things to think about

think there should be no bull bbls, and semi-autos only. have a marlin 60, as do many members here, that i've been tweaking lately and should be allowed as there are no after market parts i'm aware of. tried to get something started on the marlin forum but that fizzled out, but then, that is another decision to be made; 10/22's only ??

will this be a competitive thing where we will be posting pics of groups to show what types ammo does at 25 / 50 yds ?? could always use that kind of info in my testing. like the idea of pics with the gun and the groups.

am not too keen on the idea about using a bbl worked by randy, ( but then again, this is a superstocker thing )

am sure ADMIN is following this with interest as there has been two sections added recently: airguns and blades. i mean, this is a rimfire forum, so dont see why a section shouldn't be created for this new idea.

hope more members chime in with their oponions. yea, should be a fun, friendly section.

just my personal thoughts.

thnx for listening.








  #8  
Old 01-14-2006, 03:34 PM
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This SuperStock idea is a good one. I think you all have some good ideas that will make it fun for anyone involved. One thing I don't understand in some of these threads is this. Some of you want this class because tweaking a factory gun teaches the shooter much more about what it takes to build good rifle. Commenting that anyone with a screwdriver and wrench set can build an ultimate. Then in the same thread someone suggest sending parts off to some of the sponsors for tuning of factory parts. How is that going to teach anyone anything? I could send my trigger, bolt, and barrel off to someone and have the factory parts tweaked. When I get it all back, take out that same wrench and screwdriver and put it back together and have a very nice shooter. Still haven't learned a darn thing but I would have a SuperStock just like every one else has. I thought the point of the exercise was to teach, learn and basicly get away from the cookie cutter Ultimates that are becoming somewhat ho-hum at this point. Just my .22 cents.
-Bake
  #9  
Old 01-14-2006, 03:48 PM
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Bake I agree to a point, but at the same time my point is

If you do not have a good chamber in your barrel your throwing your money away. The Ruger 10/22 sporter chamber leaves a lot to be desired, around 1" to be more specific

I say while you at it let CPC do the full tune up, that way you save money shipping it all together, and no aftermarket target hammer. In any way your average Joe can't really do a barrel set back and rechamber, and even if he could, money spent on tools you would be far ahead letting CPC do it. A SuperStocker that shoots 1" groups is really worthless, I mean a box stock 10/22 will keep up with that so why blow money or time on it ?

How many out of the box 10/22's will hold 1" at 50 yards for a 10 shot group ? Walmart special might, but a 1" does not really float my boat....


On the other hand, if you could get great groups out of a SuperStocker using on stock parts barrel etc, and had to use expensive ammo to do it, again we are talking SuperStocker, if you have to shoot $$ ammo to make it a SuperStocker looks like we would be backing up.

If we did have a class on Superstocker in target department, I say lets keep ammo bulk only, or under a price per 1000 count. A good chamber, and a bentz chamber on a barrel will put Winchester Dynapoints around the .5" mark at 50 yards, now just find the looks of the SuperStocker you want and have your way, tune your action, etc etc. Am I on the wrong path here ?

Clint
  #10  
Old 01-14-2006, 03:55 PM
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How many people have a lathe, chamber reamers, crowning tools, mills to square the bolts, etc. That's what it takes to make the factory barrels shoot. If you have a fully equipped metal shop at home, for sure there would be no need to send anything to anyone else, you could do it all at home. Home done trigger jobs and bedding jobs is NOT going to make the rifles shoot a heckuva lot better than OEM, simply because from the factory, the headspace is loose, the crown is rough and out of square, the breech end of the barrel is out of square, and the barrel has a long long standard SAAMI sporting chamber. You can tinker on the stock parts all you wish, without either machining that barrel properly, OR replacing it with one that is, you will do not much better than a box stock gun. The barrel IS the heart of the accuracy of any firearm. Three items make for an accurate shootable firearm: Number One must be the barrel. Without the barrel being right, you can change everything else out, and it still won't shoot worth a darn; Number Two is bedding. If the barrel and action, factory OR aftermarket, are loose and no solidly placed and located in the stock, you'll never see the best accuracy. Number Three is the trigger. With a eight to ten pound pull creepy trigger with overtravel, the person behind the buttstock can never shoot that firearm to it's potential. BARREL, BEDDING, TRIGGER. Make those right, and it WILL SHOOT. Cosmetic changes in the stock, colors, painting, different barrel lenghts, all that is done to alter the cosmetics of the firearms to suit the fancy of the owner. Those three MECHANICAL items MUST be right, or you can keep on shooting two inch groups at 50 yards. So unless you've got a shop setup that allows you to machine on the oem barrel, how else can you truly accurize the factory parts without sending the barrel to a machinist???? I don't care what you do otherwise, you can tinker on your 10-22 til your dead, until you get that barrel right, the rest of your time has been wasted. I never owned a machine shop and didn't know anybody who did, so while I was messing with 10-22's, I sent Midway some money for an aftermarket barrel. I did not know about CPC at that time. Home gunsmithing with some files and screwdrivers and honing stones WILL NOT and CAN NOT take a factory barrel with a bad crown and loose sloppy non concentric chamber and make it shoot better. Sorry to be so blunt, but the truth can be a beyotch at times. I figure there's no use in sugar coating reality and making folks think that they can spend 50 cents on some sandpaper and in a few weeks have a tackdriver. It will not happen. Buy an aftermarket barrel, or pay a machinist to make the factory one correct, either way will get the bulk of the accuracy that you'll ever get out of that 10-22. Work the trigger, and bed that thing so that the action and barrel stay put, and you're there.
  #11  
Old 01-14-2006, 04:12 PM
maji

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ss 10/22

Whats so difficult. No comercial mods! Any ammo on the market. No one in the buissnes of after market parts or mods eligible. All factory parts. rifle must wear all factory parts. 10/22's produced before 1/1/06. Must be natural born citizen. All work to be done by owner.

Anything else?
  #12  
Old 01-14-2006, 04:22 PM
MtStream

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Granted the Bentz chamber is a huge improvement .True that most folks don't have access to a chamber reamer (let alone a lathe) some latitude may have to be given for this fact . The point being the barrel must be factory - if you choose to have it machined / or do the mods yourself so be it . It is part of a learning curve . Mod it as far as possible within the factory standards , then for the finale the barrel can be done .
  #13  
Old 01-14-2006, 04:22 PM
Bake

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I agree that having chamber work done is the only way to really pull any acuracy out of a stock barrel. And I know that the vast majority of us have no access to the equipment needed to do this work. I was only pointing out the obvious contradictions in what was being considered. I'm sure you guys will boil it all down to a point that make everyone happy with the end result. I guess it comes down to the fact that no one here really has any interest in playing around with a gun that will not put tiny holes on paper. So if your Super Stock class is to include rechambered factory barrels it should also be open to aftermarket barrels, Tapered or Bull depending on the factory stock that you are using. Doesn't really make since to say you must use the factory barrel considering the necessary work will cost almost as much as an aftermarket barrel. And in keeping with the low cost factor that has been mentioned for this class it would allow the selling of the factory barrel to fund the project.
-Bake
  #14  
Old 01-14-2006, 04:27 PM
Bake

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Quote:
Originally Posted by maji
Whats so difficult. No comercial mods! Any ammo on the market. No one in the buissnes of after market parts or mods eligible. All factory parts. rifle must wear all factory parts. 10/22's produced before 1/1/06. Must be natural born citizen. All work to be done by owner.

Anything else?
That is the single most comprehensive statement made on this class. If it is to be a stock rifle then perhaps it should be just that. Maybe it should be called the Super Plinker class instead.
  #15  
Old 01-14-2006, 04:27 PM
MtStream

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bake
So if your Super Stock class is to include rechambered factory barrels it should also be open to aftermarket barrels, Tapered or Bull depending on the factory stock that you are using. Doesn't really make since to say you must use the factory barrel considering the necessary work will cost almost as much as an aftermarket barrel.
-Bake
Machine work is @ 1/2 the cost ,give or take,of a aftermarket barrel . Less if you can do the work ,obviously. The reamers & crowning tools add to the cost initially - but are you really going to stop with just one use ? The tools could also be leased/sold to the next guy for his project .
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