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  #31  
Old 09-24-2019, 10:04 AM
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To the questions

1. Yes
2. Yes on the modified target
3. Ammo your gun shoots best.

I have recently started shooting in a "Fun Match" that I believe Ron Elbe set up. It is fun for me as I do not have any ARA competition rifles or that level of rests.

I believe there are a couple things people keep discussing that are completely within their comfort level.
1. Ammo price, I have tried Tenex in several rifles that did not shoot it well. Thank goodness as I don't want to pay that price for ammo but I will pay $11-12 A box for 1 or 2 rifles. It's kind of like saying I want the cap to be $12 as I know my rifle I would shoot will fit or I may have to buy and sell 5 different rifles before I find the one that shoots $7 ammo well. Shoot what your rifle shoots best and you are comfortable buying.
2. Trigger, I hate a heavy trigger so you know my answer to that discussion.
3. Rifle mods, in the match I go to you can't use forend plates or flat forend 3" wide stocks etc. In the fun matches. There is a Vintage class that my Martini, H&R, Winchester 52's or similar can shoot in. Most of the old Vinntage target rifles have a little bit of a round on the forend so they qualify.

I think it is a fun time and I get to meet other shooters that I was never exposed to. I also get to check out others equipment such as rests, rifles, cases, tool boxes and more. At the first match Ron took me under his wing and explained everything to me, showed me his equipment he uses in the ARA unlimited matches and answered any and all questions I directed at him without hesitation. He is just excited about seeing new shooters participating.. If starting this class Ron would be a great one to talk with.
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  #32  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:40 PM
52DH&R12

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Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
I totally fail to see the problem here. I see no opposition anywhere to people wanting to shoot factory rifles in benchrest competitions either in local matches at the club level or in any national benchrest group.

I am also calling BS on the cost factor being involved. Voodoo rifles are flying out of the factory and they cost at least as much as a decent used custom. You can shoot big time BR for a lifetime for the cost of a bass boat and tell me how many boats are competing in local tournaments vs. a local ARA or IR-50 match.
John, as far as I know there is no opposition to anyone shooting their factory rifle at sanctioned matches. I shot my basically factory 52D for 3 years at various ARA and IR50 matches before buying a used custom rifle. To be honest I don't think it helped that much Never had anyone say anything about it, other than ask what kind of rifle is that? What some are proposing is to offer a factory class, let them shoot along with everyone else, but to mark the target as factory or use a slightly different target, that would produce a higher than normal score. Let the winners of the factory match receive the same accolades as the winners of the regular match. It would depend on what motivates a shooter to compete.

Before I started shooting sanctioned matches, I shot with a group ( still do ) that holds matches every week during spring to fall. They have very few rules. Factory action, factory barrel, no tuners and have to use a bi-pod and rear bag for a rest. Anything else is okay. It took me awhile to get to a point where I was competitive, went thru several rifle and scope combinations before finding my 52D. Before that time I had never heard of IR50, ARA, RBA, or PSL. Knew nothing about them. I was looking for someplace to shoot in the winter, I found IR50 was having a match in Luray Va. indoors. I found a email address for the match director Bill Hinegardner and asked if it would be okay if I attended with the equipment I had. He welcomed me, laid out the rules for the match and said good luck. I really did not want to go alone, nobody from my club was interested, so I called up Kenny. This way I would have someone to at least talk to and use as a buffer, to keep from coming in last . Turns out neither one of us did that bad.

Now personally I would have not wanted to have my targets scored differently or to have had a target that was more forgiving due to my lack of equipment or skill level. I would certainly would not have relished the idea of using less than top tier ammo. But this is just me, not everybody hold the same opinion. This thread is to help find out what a new shooter would want to be involved in.
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  #33  
Old 09-24-2019, 01:22 PM
kseatm
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Originally Posted by 52DH&R12 View Post
I was looking for someplace to shoot in the winter, I found IR50 was having a match in Luray Va. indoors. I found a email address for the match director Bill Hinegardner and asked if it would be okay if I attended with the equipment I had. He welcomed me, laid out the rules for the match and said good luck. I really did not want to go alone, nobody from my club was interested, so I called up Kenny. This way I would have someone to at least talk to and use as a buffer, to keep from coming in last . Turns out neither one of us did that bad.

Now personally I would have not wanted to have my targets scored differently or to have had a target that was more forgiving due to my lack of equipment or skill level. I would certainly would not have relished the idea of using less than top tier ammo. But this is just me, not everybody hold the same opinion.
George,
You made me laugh...I was always a sucker for getting talked into situations that ended with "what could possibly go wrong?"

Seriously, to me you touch on a few things that might be worth expanding on.

One and the most important to me, is that it really does come down to what the shooters themselves want. Not just a few on the internet, but those "unknowns" out there who everyone wants to appeal to. Like you, I never cared what gun I was using. We've both went to the line against some of the best in the country using guns that cost as little as $400. Were we on a level playing field? Nah, but we weren't afraid of what might happen. There are others out there like that, but most don't look at things like us. Might be a good thing, might not be...But the thing is, none of this is a level field. No matter what people want to think, or want to have happen, there are some who are going to have built in advantages. But that's life, so I never understood the angst that some show towards those who go to the extremes to win a piece of paper saying they won a match. Now, a coffee mug I could understand. That's something that can live forever...or until the plastic melts from you leaving it out in the sun all day...

Second, whatever people decide to do will work if the people they're making the decisions for want to come. I'm just thinking maybe most people out there aren't that interested in 22 BR. It's kind of boring to be honest. To the younger crowd, old fat men just aren't that interesting...myself excluded of course Add the money it takes to do this. If you're 25 and have a wife and family, do you spend the time and money to travel and hang out with some guys for most of the day shooting guns or do you use your resources for your family? There are some younger guys (and gals) who would possibly want to get into this if there were factory classes, but again, you're appealing to a very small market. Not many young people have factory rifles capable of shooting competitive scores on BR targets. No matter what targets or ammo are being used. At most you'd have a bunch of people maybe wanting to shoot their CZ's Savages, etc. I look at what Joe Chacon (spelling?) is doing with the auto stuff and if there's gains to be made for getting newbs into BR, it seems his idea has a great chance. Haven't looked, but how much as ABRA (I think that's the name) grown since he started it? Are they building a following and are the matches well attended? I honestly don't know, but he's trying to appeal to the largest class of factory rifle owners in the country. So, to me the chances of success are weighted in his favor. I know I see his name, along with his wife's all over the internet advertising and posting results constantly. Was always impressed with how he kept putting out info about what was going on.

Third, and finally, you mention Bill H. He never cared what people brought, what they shot, nor how they got involved. He just encouraged people to come shoot. Was a godsend for me as at the time I had nothing to make 10.5 when first getting started. So, I'd go and sit it out. He'd tell me to take the gun to the line and go shoot. No my score didn't count, but he didn't care what someone was shooting as long as they were participating. Now it's an internet outrage if someone sits to the side and zeros their scope while a match is going on...as I mentioned earlier...times change, people change...

Not saying there aren't great people in this sport. And there are some people who want to grow it, want to get as many involved as possible, want to see it succeed. A factory class could work. If nothing else, at the minimum, it gives people who own those guns a chance to shoot something different once in awhile. Or to let someone new get a taste of it. But it will work only if someone cares enough, has the time and wants to make the effort to do what it takes to get these types of matches going. Ron E's name was brought up earlier. He's done awesome with how he's gone about it. He's bringing in new people. But I bet he works a lot harder than most match directors. If you can find people who are willing to do the extra work, am sure you'll see people showing up to shoot some of these matches. How many, I don't know. But am sure you'll have somebody show up.

In the long run, it would be neat to see how all of this pans out. I hope that Paul and company can make it a success. But the match directors are the ones who are going to make or break this. Do they even want to do this? Am sure some do, but it is a heck of a lot of work for a lot of people who are only match directors because nobody else in their area wants the job.

Just opinions...

Kenny
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  #34  
Old 09-24-2019, 01:32 PM
chuck40219
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OK I admit

I did not follow the questions.

1. If a factory match like this was available in your area, would you go?

2. If given a choice, would you prefer a target that was somewhat easier to get a high score on or use the target the custom shooters use ?

3. Would you prefer to use the best best ammo available or something limited to under 7.00 or 8.00 per box ?

1: yes
2: open to what ever is decided.
3: I would like to shoot what I can afford. But I will not demand others shoot what I do.

My reason for this to happen is. I like to shoot and would welcome the chance to be with like minded persons while I shoot. I will not go with the ideal to win but to improve my own scores, and learn.

chuck40219
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  #35  
Old 09-24-2019, 02:04 PM
kseatm
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Originally Posted by chuck40219 View Post
I did not follow the questions.

1. If a factory match like this was available in your area, would you go?

2. If given a choice, would you prefer a target that was somewhat easier to get a high score on or use the target the custom shooters use ?

3. Would you prefer to use the best best ammo available or something limited to under 7.00 or 8.00 per box ?

1: yes
2: open to what ever is decided.
3: I would like to shoot what I can afford. But I will not demand others shoot what I do.

My reason for this to happen is. I like to shoot and would welcome the chance to be with like minded persons while I shoot. I will not go with the ideal to win but to improve my own scores, and learn.

chuck40219
Chuck,
You, and several who've replied likewise, are hopefully who they are trying to address with this factory class. There are people who look at this just like yourself. I think it would be neat as heck to have a factory class mixed in with the customs.

But, and here's the biggie, I don't see it bringing anything to the table. For those who look at it like yourself, it wouldn't matter if you were shooting against rifles just like yours or if you were shooting against nothing but Turbos, 10x's or 2500x's. You're shooting against yourself only. Oh, you'll beat a lot of the custom rifles on raw score. Here's a hint for those who don't follow the sport...not all custom rifles shoot all that great. But, you won't beat the good guys with good customs. Not everyday, not most any day. Once in awhile you'll probably win a target or maybe even a match, depending on who you're shooting against. If that's good for you, then great, why even have a factory class? You are doing exactly what you want to do and doing pretty darn well at an initial cost far less than those you're competing against. And if from this experience, you find you want to go the full custom route to see how far you can go, you've now got an idea of what it's going to take.

But again, not everyone looks at it this way. Some want a chance to win. Some want to win no matter what. For those, a factory class, where they are competing against the same types of rifles might make sense. I just wonder how many out there would even get into this if it comes to pass. Wouldn't hurt to try, but it will take some extra work on MD's parts.

Probably aren't explaining this very well, but in a nutshell, I would shoot anything against anyone and see where I stood at the end of it all. And was fine with it. Others are like that. But there seems to be an interest for a factory class so that people will feel like they have more of a chance to win. But to me, if you really want to win, just shoot better. Most high end factory rifles can compete against the average custom rifle. Especially at the average club level. It's just that when the club is made up of big name shooters that you'll find that you might need something a little more.

You want to scare some people? Go find a 40x or 52D in good shape that shoots pretty well. Heck, find a Sako that shoots well. Find some ammo that works whatever you have. Get a decent rest or even a bipod. And practice reading wind. You'd be surprised how well you'll do against guns with fancy names on the side.

I've seen factory rifles finish in the top 5 in National events. No tuners, no fancy rest, shot off a bipod. Shot my first 2400 off of a bipod with a 40x with no tuner. Had no idea what the heck I was doing but thought it would be a hoot to give it a try. Won quite a few cards and even a match here and there with a Kimber 82G. Heck, had to turn my bloop with the front aperture sights still attached upside down so I could look through the scope at the target with the thing for the first match! And won the match!

Long story short, I don't personally see the need for a factory class as I never was worried about shooting factory rifles against customs. But if there were a factory class, I'd applaud it and would shoot in it if I felt like going to a match.

Will be neat to see how this plays out.

Kenny
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  #36  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:09 PM
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Question 1. Yes
Question 2. Same Target
Question 3. Ammo- Anything up to $10/box
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  #37  
Old 09-24-2019, 10:11 PM
linekin
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Originally Posted by chuck40219 View Post
I did not follow the questions.

1. If a factory match like this was available in your area, would you go?

2. If given a choice, would you prefer a target that was somewhat easier to get a high score on or use the target the custom shooters use ?

3. Would you prefer to use the best best ammo available or something limited to under 7.00 or 8.00 per box ?

1: yes
2: open to what ever is decided.
3: I would like to shoot what I can afford. But I will not demand others shoot what I do.

My reason for this to happen is. I like to shoot and would welcome the chance to be with like minded persons while I shoot. I will not go with the ideal to win but to improve my own scores, and learn.

chuck40219
Chuck, you "get "it!! Thats what its all about & when you think any other way thats when things go south. No offense to my southern friends of course!
I started IR50 UL matches at my local club knowing full well that all there is around here is factory guns. My hopes were it would take hold & to a small extent it has. I have 4 or 5 guys show up regularly & they all "get it".
All but one has upgraded their scopes & one has bought a used Anschutz/ custom sporter.
I don't see as there's much extra work at all. In fact its pretty minimal. Of course shooting UL I don't have to regulate whats factory is either. There is no real prep for it other than putting up frames & they all help with that so its a non issue.
Running IR matches isn't that difficult on a club level match. When you have 20+ shooters then you may see something different. I'll never have that.
And Kenny, I'm not old or fat...yet! Good to hear from you!
Keith
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  #38  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:31 AM
kseatm
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Originally Posted by linekin View Post
Chuck, you "get "it!! Thats what its all about & when you think any other way thats when things go south. No offense to my southern friends of course!
I started IR50 UL matches at my local club knowing full well that all there is around here is factory guns. My hopes were it would take hold & to a small extent it has. I have 4 or 5 guys show up regularly & they all "get it".
All but one has upgraded their scopes & one has bought a used Anschutz/ custom sporter.
I don't see as there's much extra work at all. In fact its pretty minimal. Of course shooting UL I don't have to regulate whats factory is either. There is no real prep for it other than putting up frames & they all help with that so its a non issue.
Running IR matches isn't that difficult on a club level match. When you have 20+ shooters then you may see something different. I'll never have that.
And Kenny, I'm not old or fat...yet! Good to hear from you!
Keith
Hey Keith!
Good to see you chime in on this as you actually are a match director! Just shows how much I know about running a match! That's what I get for going by what everyone tells me about how much work it is... Even mentioned to George yesterday that I probably should have just kept cleaning my flower beds and left this thread alone.

Anyway, two final thoughts... doing this in conjunction with ARA matches would be easier than with IR 3 gun matches. IR UL would probably allow it to work ok. But again, personally I don't see the need for it unless someone just wanted a trophy to say they won something. But that's me.

And second Keith, you'll never be fat! I think of you as svelte

Give me a call if you ever get down this way. If I'm free, we'll go get some soup!

Kenny
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  #39  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:23 AM
tommyt654

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" But, you won't beat the good guys with good customs"

and theres the rub why some do not want to see it implemented into the ARA.It will take away those apparently valuable points they need to fantasize about winning in an organization that is clearly favored to those who spend the most money on their rigs and testing ammo.That is just a fact

I originated that post over on the website previously mentioned and it had been discussed many years ago and in the exact same vein of thought pretty much destroyed it there as well.

But now we have Eley who solely owns the ARA and is trying to keep it alive and seeks to implement a way of keeping old and bringing in new shooters to their financial benefit.I applaude their efforts to at least try to bring in new and older shooters who would be able to purchase rifles that could compete in a factory class agenda.

While many suggestions have come up I personally still think that we might be better off having 2 separate class's to allow those with factory rifles to modify them to their liking and yet still be affordable

Factory Class AI

Only as issued factory rifles allowed,pretty plain and simple,any scope allowed.
No bedding,No aftermarket triggers,enhancements will be allowed to factory triggers(this unfortunately will benfit Suhls and Anschutz rifles)



Factory Class M

Any factory issued reciever and barreled rifle with the allowed modifications
1: Any trigger
2.Tuners allowed
3.Bedding allowed
4.Attachments allowed to enhanse stability in a rest (ie fore arm bench rest plates)
5. Aftermarket 3 inch wide fore-end stocks or modified factory stocks allowed.

The exact same target and scoring will stay the same to the benefit of the ARA scoring program

All ammo must be under $8 of purchase commonly seen for sale

These are just my thoughts.Too compete in the ARA or IR 50/50 at the very highest tiers takes money and lots of it to stay there,thats just a fact as shown in this link

http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forum...get-to-the-top

The previous link mentioned earler here is shown here

http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forum...I-have-a-Dream

Last edited by tommyt654; 09-25-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:42 AM
RAVAGE
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Originally Posted by 52DH&R12 View Post
Unless Vudoo makes the barrel that would be on it, it would not qualify. Factory action and factory barrel. Otherwise it would open everything up to the Turbo, 2500X, Tridents.... they too are made in a factory.
We have our own barrel, made in a facility where we own 100% of the production, made to our bore and groove specs, twist rate and profiles and use a chamber designed by me and exclusive to Vudoo. In addition, we offer other barrels from Bartlein, Proof Research and Lothar Walther. Our barrel is our "factory" barrel.

MB
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  #41  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:02 AM
analretentive

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sporter match

1) Yes.

2) Ir 50/50

3) Any

8 1/2 lb limit. I think that's about what an average sporter with a scope that you might actually carry into the woods would max out.

Any factory sporter. Mossberg to Anschutz.

Must be the factory barrel, factory stock, factory action that comes with the retail product.

Sporter stock: The stock that came with the rifle without modification other than bedding. No flat or flattened forends or butts. Once again, something that looks like you would carry it into the woods. No R. U. Sirius IR 50/50 Sporter legal stocks. There would have to be a simple template.

Barrel: The barrel that came with the rifle. No modifications. No tuners.

Action. The unmodified action that came with the retail unit.

Trigger: Any

Scope and mounts: Any

Rest: Any

Ammunition: Any

No wind flags.

Gerry
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  #42  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:03 PM
vlnbyr

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Tommy---Eley would be well advised to look in the mirror. Virtually 100% of the people dropping out of ARA and selling their rifles is because they are disgusted by the cost and effort of finding good ammo.
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  #43  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:53 PM
analretentive

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Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
Tommy---Eley would be well advised to look in the mirror. Virtually 100% of the people dropping out of ARA and selling their rifles is because they are disgusted by the cost and effort of finding good ammo.
I know that wasn't directed to me but, I think it's more than just ammo.

The really educational thread about " how to get to the top" on RA, kind of downplayed what is a very important consideration...$$$$$$$.

I'm guessing an expenditure of 15 to 20Gs for several years....ammo testing, equipment, and travel. Maybe more? If you can afford that, and have the time, then you've probably earned both the money and time. Congratulations...really.

I'm building a rifle now, saving for a rest and ammo; with the full realization that I haven't a snowball's chance in hell of reaching the top. But I really love shooting rimfire, and tinkering.

Gerry
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  #44  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:27 PM
tommyt654

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^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why they both already have sporter class in both leagues.If you want sporter class rifles then ask for a sporter class to be initiated for Factory only in that classification,But you are correct those with the most time,effort and most importantly money will be the top tiered whether or not they are great shooters depends on their ability to read the wind outdoors and conditions indoors and that all important ammo chase John talks about

We are talking about BR rifles, which last time I looked everyone shooting in BR whether it be rimfire or centerfire are using flat fore end stocks.That is why I believe it should be allowed.We are shooting BR rifles

John while I totally agree do you really think since the takeover of Eley by a conglomerate they are going to produce just a few top performing rounds when for yrs they have been producing several different lots adding to their pockets.They have this figured out as a way to make money.It is capitalism at it's finest something America has its roots based in,Ah yes,CAPITALISM,ain't it grand,lol

Last edited by tommyt654; 09-25-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  #45  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:43 PM
KyleAllen is online now
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Originally Posted by analretentive View Post
1)

No wind flags.

Gerry
I don’t understand why?

If you are shooting the Sporters in the same relay as Unlimited....there are 50 flags out there anyway.

If you want the Unlimited Shooters to take down their flags for the Sporters, get ready for some Cussing.

Last edited by KyleAllen; 09-25-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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