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  #16  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:38 AM
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Well like Doc says I myself have never built off of a Kidd rear tang receiver, so I guess I should refrain from my so called not seeing the need. I have had great luck with my builds. All have shot very well. Heck I have even had good luck shooting some of mine with Hogue stocks that others seem not to like. But I agree better choices of stocks are a plus. So having said that last statement I can see why a rear tang receiver can have some advantage.
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Old 09-08-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote from DrGunner>> To all those who have posted how a rear tang is “unnecessary” and “provides no improvement”.

Doc, I have read all of the post twice and don't see where anyone said that. Certainly not me. To the guy who claims the rear tang bought him a quarter inch.. I suspect there was something wrong with his rifle before he added it.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
Quote from DrGunner>> To all those who have posted how a rear tang is “unnecessary” and “provides no improvement”.

Doc, I have read all of the post twice and don't see where anyone said that. Certainly not me. To the guy who claims the rear tang bought him a quarter inch.. I suspect there was something wrong with his rifle before he added it.
There-
I went back and edited my post to align with the semantics of your reply.

GH41-I should clarify- because I realize it seems like I’m singling you out, which is not my intent.
My post was more of a generalization, as I’ve seen several threads of this nature pop up here and there- with our resident experts sharing their sage wisdom based on zero real world experience with the actual modification being discussed.
Up til now, I’ve refrained from responding, but this thread prompted me to opine.
It’s not just you, there are plenty of others on RFC whose posts are similar to yours in tone and advice about adding a 2nd action screw.
I would hope that we can agree that a single 12-24 screw is not the ideal method to fasten an action to a stock, especially when free floating a barrel & the only other point of fixation is the cam-in property of the TG, which is often held in place with trigger pins that have so much slop that they fall out on the bench when the action is removed from the stock.

The people posting their dubious claims about the efficacy of a second hold down that they’ve never even tried make me wonder if they’re not posting to convince themselves that it won’t make enough difference to offset the effort or cost, to assuage their own pride in not having tried that step?

I personally try to refrain from judging the merits or folly of a seemingly legitimate modification if I have not tried it myself.

This is a hobby- and we all have different skill sets and expectations from our rifles.
The OP in this case specifically asked for market availability of receivers with a rear hold down. I assume that means he’s done enough research and wants a 2 screw rifle. He can certainly build without one, as stated- Joe Chacon has built many nationally competitive and winning rifles without a rear tang.

To the OP- our resident George aka azguy can retrofit a Kidd rear tang to any receiver. I personally have installed them on Ruger, Tactical Machining, Tactical Innovations rear- and side- charging receivers as well as a VQ. It’s easy to do yourself if you have a mill or drill press, cross slide vise, and reversible countersink bit.

I think it’s a very worthwhile step if you’re handy and have the tools.
For me, the frequent .1” and occasionally .2” @ 50 yard improvement I’ve seen from pillar and tang bedding my rifles is well worth the effort, but to be fair, I’ve bedded quite a few of them and have the system down pat pretty well.

If you ever get the chance to shoot a Kidd SG,- Try it. I’m confident you’ll FEEL the difference in how solid the rifle is when cocking and shooting it.

I just finished moving my kids into bigger stocks, and bedded theirs.
Inletting was tight enough around the TD area that I didn’t need to drill anchor holes and bed the entire floor. That would have been overkill.



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  #19  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:53 PM
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  #20  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:59 PM
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there was something wrong with my rifle. it didnt have a rear tang. you could squeeze your fingers on the trigger gaurd and thumb on stock behind the action and separate the action from the stock by an 1/8 inch will only medium pressure. im not hating on hogue stocks, it is what it is. the barrels an aftermarket barrel, the bolt was reworked. the trigger is well under two pounds. the rear tang was the difference.
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  #21  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wonshott View Post
there was something wrong with my rifle. it didnt have a rear tang. you could squeeze your fingers on the trigger gaurd and thumb on stock behind the action and separate the action from the stock by an 1/8 inch will only medium pressure. im not hating on hogue stocks, it is what it is. the barrels an aftermarket barrel, the bolt was reworked. the trigger is well under two pounds. the rear tang was the difference.


Empty your cup" is an old Chinese Chan (Zen) saying that occasionally pops up in western popular entertainment. "Empty your cup" often is attributed to a famous conversation between the scholar Tokusan (also called Te-shan Hsuan-chien, 782-865) and Zen Master Ryutan (Lung-t'an Ch'ung-hsin or Longtan Chongxin, 760-840).


The "Empty Your Cup" Conversation
Scholar Tokusan--who was full of knowledge and opinions about the dharma--came to Ryutan and asked about Zen. At one point Ryutan re-filled his guest's teacup but did not stop pouring when the cup was full. Tea spilled out and ran over the table. "Stop! The cup is full!" said Tokusan.

"Exactly," said Master Ryutan. "You are like this cup; you are full of ideas. You come and ask for teaching, but your cup is full; I can't put anything in. Before I can teach you, you'll have to empty your cup."

This is harder than you might realize. By the time we reach adulthood we are so full of information that we don't even notice it's there. We might consider ourselves to be open-minded, but in fact, everything we learn is filtered through many assumptions and then classified to fit into the knowledge we already possess.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2019, 04:19 PM
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For those who have an old MOA receiver with the rear lug and put it in a Boyd style stock where you can’t use the screw, there is another option.

I hand fit a recess, for the lug, within the stock just behind the receiver. Even though there is no screw, the lug sets firm in the recess which appears to keep it from tilting. It certainly isn’t as good as using the screw, but I didn’t want to change the stock.

The Kidd system appears that it will work on almost any stock, but it is visible.

The MOA system is not easily visible, but it has its limitations on which stocks you can use it on.
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wonshott View Post
there was something wrong with my rifle. it didnt have a rear tang. you could squeeze your fingers on the trigger gaurd and thumb on stock behind the action and separate the action from the stock by an 1/8 inch will only medium pressure. im not hating on hogue stocks, it is what it is. the barrels an aftermarket barrel, the bolt was reworked. the trigger is well under two pounds. the rear tang was the difference.
There was way more wrong besides not having a rear hold down. It wasn't bedded properly whether you want to admit it or not. Sounds like you admitted it when you said the barreled action was teeter tottering in the stock. Did you ever wonder how much better it would have shot with the addition of a simple pressure point under the barrel. Don't sing the praises of a rear hold down without acknowledging that you didn't try anything else.
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  #24  
Old 09-08-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DrGunner View Post


Empty your cup" is an old Chinese Chan (Zen) saying that occasionally pops up in western popular entertainment. "Empty your cup" often is attributed to a famous conversation between the scholar Tokusan (also called Te-shan Hsuan-chien, 782-865) and Zen Master Ryutan (Lung-t'an Ch'ung-hsin or Longtan Chongxin, 760-840).


The "Empty Your Cup" Conversation
Scholar Tokusan--who was full of knowledge and opinions about the dharma--came to Ryutan and asked about Zen. At one point Ryutan re-filled his guest's teacup but did not stop pouring when the cup was full. Tea spilled out and ran over the table. "Stop! The cup is full!" said Tokusan.

"Exactly," said Master Ryutan. "You are like this cup; you are full of ideas. You come and ask for teaching, but your cup is full; I can't put anything in. Before I can teach you, you'll have to empty your cup."

This is harder than you might realize. By the time we reach adulthood we are so full of information that we don't even notice it's there. We might consider ourselves to be open-minded, but in fact, everything we learn is filtered through many assumptions and then classified to fit into the knowledge we already possess.
So you are resorting to quoting old Chinese proverbs to reinforce your belief in something that hasn't proven itself to do much more than take money out of the average person's pocketbook? I have NO interest in making a fight out of this. I just want you guys to quit promoting mods that add little value to the average shooter's experience.
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:07 PM
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This was my last GM build. In this photo, it has a Bell & Carlson stock. When I first built it, I put it in a cheap black Hogue stock. I slapped the tuner on it and went to the range one time just to see what it would do. I shot some CCI standard velocity to sight scope in. Then I shot some groups. The CCI this GM barrel didn't like. Now this tuner on my 20" Kidd barrel builds all seem to do very well on 186 on the Kidd barrels I have tried it on using SK Pistol Match. So I was figuring around that setting on 20" GM barrel. So I went straight to SK Pistol Match and I didn't take very many shots to do this on setting 185.




Here it is next to a dime.



I put gun up after that for I found out all I needed to know.

I have done the same with a Hogue stock on a Kidd barrel build.




Last edited by ILIKE1022; 09-08-2019 at 11:48 PM.
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:16 PM
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I honestly think if more folks would spend their money on good ammo and a good tuner vs money spent on a particular type receiver they would be ahead in the accuracy department. I have had good luck with Tactical Innovations Elite22 receivers and plain stock Ruger receivers.
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:18 PM
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i never said the action was rocking. to clarify everything forward of the receiver screw would not move, the receiver wouldnt move, but the stock would flex away from the reciever. all of the flex was in the stock around the reciever. i will freely admit i didnt try a pressure point, but how does that mean the rear tang didnt work?
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
So you are resorting to quoting old Chinese proverbs to reinforce your belief in something that hasn't proven itself to do much more than take money out of the average person's pocketbook? I have NO interest in making a fight out of this. I just want you guys to quit promoting mods that add little value to the average shooter's experience.
Well, we obviously will have to agree to disagree, as I also want you to stop disparaging mods with which we both know you have no experience.

Respectfully,

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  #29  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:32 PM
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And I left out the most important...money on a good accurate barrel.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:21 PM
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Is a rear tang necessary to build an accurate 10-22 rifle? NO! Many people have proven just the opposite. I believe MKnarr still holds the record on RFC for the smallest group @ 100 yards with a single screw rifle that was pillar & partially barrel [email protected] .319”, 5 shots.

Does it help create a much more solid action? Yes!
Adding a 2nd hold down, along with pillar bedding, results in a rifle that will MAINTAIN consistent accuracy over time through many disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly cycles.

I think we can all agree Tony Kidd knows what he’s doing. He designed his rifles with a second hold down for a reason.

To all those who have posted how a rear tang is “overkill has to be questioned” & “Very few of us will gain any benefit from it.”... I’ll ask- have you ever owned one with a rear hold down?

How many of your OTHER rifles have 2 screw mounting systems?
Would you REMOVE the rear action screw on any of them, squirt some JB weld under the barrel, and expect accuracy to IMPROVE?

Telling those who genuinely come here looking for accurate information that a modification HAS NO BENEFIT when YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE MOD is disingenuous, at the very least.

I often wonder if those who go around disparaging a rifle modification that they’ve never tried, do so because the mod itself is beyond their technical expertise or financial commitment to accuracy?

I know one thing for sure- the solid feel of a custom 10-22, Devcon bedded with rear tang and front pillar is an amazing thing. A free floated barrel on a rifle built that way hums like a tuning fork after each shot, which is music to my ears.

DrGunner
Hey Doc, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

Here is a torque test TacGunner did with his rear tang setup https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...7&postcount=38 .
One observation I made was that now you have TWO screws to worry about. The different torque settings for this test produced considerable variables.

Here is a quick 4 magazine(10shots each) I ran. No significant difference.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...7&postcount=38 . Certainly by no means conclusive and I won't be removing my rear tang, but when my groups are even bigger than they are now, I have another screw to check.

The type of modification post that amuses me goes something like this: I took my name brand aftermarket receiver with my hand lapped Shilen barrel, $100 aftermarket bolt, $300 target stock, $200 match trigger, $25 ammunition, hand fit everything and adding another screw ABSOLUTELY NAILED IT!

Any before and after data to add to the discussion?

Last edited by Bigbore; 09-08-2019 at 10:29 PM.
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