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  #16  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:31 AM
kseatm
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My opinion only....if someone wants to use a light tuner, good for them. If someone wants to use a regular tuner, I feel the same. If someone wants to use tuners, slides, weights, mid barrels, etc...go for it.

Have been to the Nationals. Shot in a few big events here and there. Had a gun good enough to win but I was the weak link. Never won a National, but did finish 5th and 3rd in the last two. Won some pretty big events, but never a national. What did I use in the events I did well in? A light tuner, a regular tuner, a tuner with a bloop, a tuner with a bloop and mid barrel tuner, etc, etc...

What did it all mean? To me, it didn't mean anything. I've seen people win huge events with about any type of set up you can imagine. So, what works for them and their setup works. You don't have to cut your barrels to 24 inches, stick a regular Harrel tuner on and set it to 165 to win. Have seen too many do it with different setups.

I do agree with 1911...when talking about tuning, it can get a bit sideways. But as Keith said, Lee has been forthcoming, does what he does and doesn't charge for the advice. He's not making anyone do anything. Just sharing what he has tried. Why the angst against him?

I've shot one of Lee's tuners. Indoors and outside. Did ok, won the Mid Atlantic Regionals, finished 6th, 100 points from first in the VA State ARA (tough crowd). Finished 3rd in a club match with the same shooters the next day. Didn't do so hot at the Triple Crown though. Finished 30th, but that was just me not being able to shoot in those conditions. The wind was way over my pay grade. Had nothing to do with the tuner I was using.

Anyway, it doesn't matter and doubt most people's ideas and beliefs will change from what they read on the internet. But what's the harm in trying things that might be different?

I do agree that it's ammo and barrels. But don't forget that being good comes into play. There's a reason the big name guys win most of the big events...

JMO

Kenny
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  #17  
Old 08-24-2019, 09:49 PM
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Well said Kenny.
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  #18  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:34 AM
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Kenny this post is most interesting in that it offers the FINAL WORD in all questions concerning competitive 22 benchrest. All future posts in this area should just refer back to this one. Equipment and components of all types and brands all win and none of it much matters. Same with tuning, at the top and winning and setting records you see most anything and everything so the only conclusion can be that none of it matters much at all. Get a good barrel, smithed right, get good ammo, tune it however you want, and if you can shoot you can win and set records. John Prince
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  #19  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:56 PM
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Well said Kenny.
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  #20  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbosam View Post
Zero guns have won with positive compensation as there tuning method ZERO! Until it wins a national or some big time match your tuning is just as you described gobly glock whatever the hell that is. Marty you may not like it or not Bill Calfee has built more winning guns than you have ever thought of. Show results or fade back into oblivion. No results means you dont have any. Keep playing with your lite tuners and keep winning those big time events, oh wait they havent won anything that's right. Lmao keep trying boys
every rifle that has won a match from local to national/international have been won with positive compensation. marty
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  #21  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
Kenny this post is most interesting in that it offers the FINAL WORD in all questions concerning competitive 22 benchrest. All future posts in this area should just refer back to this one. Equipment and components of all types and brands all win and none of it much matters. Same with tuning, at the top and winning and setting records you see most anything and everything so the only conclusion can be that none of it matters much at all. Get a good barrel, smithed right, get good ammo, tune it however you want, and if you can shoot you can win and set records. John Prince
John, you know this and I know this, most rifles are not tuned, they are "just made to shoot". regardless of the prose, that's just the way it is.
barrel time and humidity play the greatest role in precision shooting. forced deformation plays the greatest role in accuracy " where the muzzle is pointing". fact's have a funny way of getting into the way of opinions... marty
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  #22  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:09 PM
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Turbosam, about Bill Calfee, I believe Bill Calfee is a genius, told that to tomc. jack, old sidewinder back in 2007 or 2008. one cannot have that creativity with guns and water colors without. Andy Warhol had a 86 iq but is considered a genius. my problem was his attacking manufactures add to the ridicule of those trying to advance rimfire benchrest, ignoring and ridiculing proven science. so no I never liked those lemmings that only wanted to trash folks that were honestly trying to solve what is beyond complicated, that only a few have the mental capacity to comprehend. marty
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  #23  
Old 09-07-2019, 12:15 AM
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turbosam, one other thing, back on August 6th 2007 myself, jack Igou, Don Blazer and what I call the 2 kids from Penn State where at Blair county forest club. thru man testing with multiple rifles and tuners the conclusion was slower round were being launched at a higher arc than faster rounds. Jack and Don who each subscribed to precision shooting magazine knew that was in conflict with the article calfee had drawn and posted and that holy hell would happen if we posted our results. well me being me I did. got thrown off wilburs sight as he stated to me " you upset too many calfee shooters" so me being me and as nave as one can be about cult afflictions I moved ahead. so today thanks to Rutgers, "we are Penn state" and draper engineering those of us nave now know the muzzle doesn't in any way do what calfee drew, wrote in precision magazine. so turbosam thanks to Rutgers, "we are penn State, Draper, 2 very intelligent PSU graduates, I know what you don't know. and that' the way it's going to be....lol...ain't life like a box of candy, you never know what you'll get.....marty
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  #24  
Old 09-24-2019, 10:58 AM
mwezell
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I'm with Marty here. And as hard as it must be for Lee to read this and not say I'm wrong...Lite tuners do work...but so do heavy tuners. If small adjustments change tune, why wouldn't removing weight, or adding it? They both have the same effect. Adding or removing weight is just a big swing at it where moving the tuner is a methodical and incremental way of doing the same thing. I've never said that lite tuners don't work but I have my reasons for preferring heavier ones. And yes, I think every winner ever, has won with pc.
IMO, that's what we should be studying, not whether a tuner needs to weigh xx amount, per se. That's like not seeing the forest for the trees, IMO. Weight probably does play a role in pc but we can change tune with lite or heavy tuners.

Much like Calfee certainly can build a winning rifle while not really understanding why some things work, it still works, and the same goes for shooters. They can win without knowing how or why what they do works for them. In the big scheme of things, the hows and whys don't matter to many/most of them. But, it makes for lots of internet banter. Scientifically speaking, Calfee is flat wrong but his methods work for many.
He should just say that! Instead, he states as fact, theories that are proven wrong by physics.

When I first started testing tuners there were several on the market that their instructions for using them varied between makes..wildly. You could easily see that they all affected tune but using the supplied instructions, you couldn't keep up with changes in tune without blind luck, and lots of it. I just made my process to be much more precise and methodical and it works for me. I spent a fair amount of money and lots of time doing vibration analysis testing but largely to confirm what I had already seen on targets..lots of targets. The science just connected the dots and gave me a better understanding of the whys and hows...that don't mean squat to someone who has a method that he or she wins with.

Bottom line...accuracy is about managing harmonics. So when Marty says it's about barrel time, he's exactly right. It's about having the bullet exit while the barrel is at it's optimal position for least dispersion. That's true be it rf or cf..or even air rifle.

FWIW, I just won a national championship with 109 rifles and some of the best shooters in the world there. In the 3 classes that allow tuners, the top 3 in every class ran my tuner and my tuning method except one shooter who runs no tuner on his rifle. I know some will say...but it was centerfire! Remember what I said...Tuning is about timing bullet exit to coincide with optimal muzzle position. This is true, be it rf or cf. As far as I know, every person there running my tuner, came pre loaded! Moving the tuner to maintain tune saved my butt, as we had 30+ degree temp swings on both days. I'm 100% positive that the tune changed, you could clearly see it on the target. And I'm 100% positive that I brought it right back into tune with tiny tuner adjustments as the days went on. Again, you could clearly see it on target. So yes, moving the tuner during a match to keep up with conditions can be done effectively.
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  #25  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:21 PM
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Excuse me, but what is the name of your tuner and where can they be purchased
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  #26  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:32 PM
mwezell
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Originally Posted by Shamokinbob View Post
Excuse me, but what is the name of your tuner and where can they be purchased
It's the Ezell "PDT" Tuner. I have a website but do orders by phone. My site is
www.ezellcustomrifles.com

My contact info is on there. The site is dated...been trying to make time to do a bunch of updating but we can cover everything by phone. Thanks!--Mike Ezell
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  #27  
Old 09-24-2019, 02:18 PM
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Lee is correct about light tuners do shoot well. I know Bill Calfee always liked at least a 8oz tuner. They do work. But you can take a light tuner and stick it on a $200 20" Kidd barrel and see very good results. I have done it. Yes, I know Kidd barrels aren't a true benchrest competition barrel, but they do shoot very well and with a tuner they shoot even better.

The tuner on my Joe Chacon ABRA Douglas barrel gun shoots lights out. I never weighed the tuner, but I doubt it weighs 8oz. It will hang with a lot of bolt guns. Not the cream of the crop, but for a 10/22 action gun it will surprise the hell out of most.
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  #28  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:35 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
I'm with Marty here. And as hard as it must be for Lee to read this and not say I'm wrong...Lite tuners do work...but so do heavy tuners. If small adjustments change tune, why wouldn't removing weight, or adding it? They both have the same effect. Adding or removing weight is just a big swing at it where moving the tuner is a methodical and incremental way of doing the same thing. I've never said that lite tuners don't work but I have my reasons for preferring heavier ones. And yes, I think every winner ever, has won with pc.
IMO, that's what we should be studying, not whether a tuner needs to weigh xx amount, per se. That's like not seeing the forest for the trees, IMO. Weight probably does play a role in pc but we can change tune with lite or heavy tuners.

Much like Calfee certainly can build a winning rifle while not really understanding why some things work, it still works, and the same goes for shooters. They can win without knowing how or why what they do works for them. In the big scheme of things, the hows and whys don't matter to many/most of them. But, it makes for lots of internet banter. Scientifically speaking, Calfee is flat wrong but his methods work for many.
He should just say that! Instead, he states as fact, theories that are proven wrong by physics.

When I first started testing tuners there were several on the market that their instructions for using them varied between makes..wildly. You could easily see that they all affected tune but using the supplied instructions, you couldn't keep up with changes in tune without blind luck, and lots of it. I just made my process to be much more precise and methodical and it works for me. I spent a fair amount of money and lots of time doing vibration analysis testing but largely to confirm what I had already seen on targets..lots of targets. The science just connected the dots and gave me a better understanding of the whys and hows...that don't mean squat to someone who has a method that he or she wins with.

Bottom line...accuracy is about managing harmonics. So when Marty says it's about barrel time, he's exactly right. It's about having the bullet exit while the barrel is at it's optimal position for least dispersion. That's true be it rf or cf..or even air rifle.

FWIW, I just won a national championship with 109 rifles and some of the best shooters in the world there. In the 3 classes that allow tuners, the top 3 in every class ran my tuner and my tuning method except one shooter who runs no tuner on his rifle. I know some will say...but it was centerfire! Remember what I said...Tuning is about timing bullet exit to coincide with optimal muzzle position. This is true, be it rf or cf. As far as I know, every person there running my tuner, came pre loaded! Moving the tuner to maintain tune saved my butt, as we had 30+ degree temp swings on both days. I'm 100% positive that the tune changed, you could clearly see it on the target. And I'm 100% positive that I brought it right back into tune with tiny tuner adjustments as the days went on. Again, you could clearly see it on target. So yes, moving the tuner during a match to keep up with conditions can be done effectively.
Mike, I do know heavy setups work, I used them for years. however what I discovered is that using the least amount of weight really opens the window for different lots to shoot better than with a heavy setup.
as Marty has said for years a .900 barrel will simple be made to shoot and not to it's full potential if using a tuner more than 5-oz. in weight.

Let me ask this, if you have a barrel that can group in the sub-.200 without a tuner, why is it that we need to put 8-oz.+ of weight to make it consistent. so if we are talking barrel timing and optimal muzzle position for the exit of the bullet, if we use too much weight could we possible be limiting that optimal position for the best timing and why some rifles/barrels seem to only shoot certain lot speeds best.

Lee

Last edited by Hi-NV Shooter; 09-24-2019 at 11:44 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:06 PM
mwezell
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Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
Mike, I do know heavy setups work, I used them for years. however what I discovered is that using the least amount of weight really opens the window for different lots to shoot better than with a heavy setup.
as Marty has said for years a .900 barrel will simple be made to shoot and not to it's full potential if using a tuner more than 5-oz. in weight.

Let me ask this, if you have a barrel that can group in the sub-.200 without a tuner, why is it that we need to put 8-oz.+ of weight to make it consistent. so if we are talking barrel timing and optimal muzzle position for the exit of the bullet, if we use too much weight could we possible be limiting that optimal position for the best timing and why some rifles/barrels seem to only shoot certain lot speeds best.

Lee
IMO, the answer is no and we can agree to disagree about which will give a wider window, per se. I will offer my experience and the physical reasoning to support my position but YMMV, still.
IME, the wider window it attained with a heavier tuner. The logic is that the heavier tuner(or mass) lowers the frequency of vibration further than a lighter mass. This is just a fact. A lower frequency, in simple terms is just more distance between nodes. Again, just a simple fact. More distance between nodes should have a wider tune window. Now, that's my experience and the reasoning behind it. If your experience is different, as you say, why do you think it's that way?

I have no desire to argue or debate but if we can have a friendly discussion on the subject, I'll be happy to do that with you.
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:11 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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IMO, the answer is no and we can agree to disagree about which will give a wider window, per se. I will offer my experience and the physical reasoning to support my position but YMMV, still.
IME, the wider window it attained with a heavier tuner. The logic is that the heavier tuner(or mass) lowers the frequency of vibration further than a lighter mass. This is just a fact. A lower frequency, in simple terms is just more distance between nodes. Again, just a simple fact. More distance between nodes should have a wider tune window. Now, that's my experience and the reasoning behind it. If your experience is different, as you say, why do you think it's that way?

I have no desire to argue or debate but if we can have a friendly discussion on the subject, I'll be happy to do that with you.
Ok Mike, I only responded to your post because you brought my name up, why I have no idea from our past exchanges we don't believe in the same way to get a rifle to shoot at it's highest level.
all I can rely on is what others who have posted to this thread have said what they experienced using a lite tuner. 2 of which shot their first 2500 and the neat thing is one of them turned down the tuner himself using the specs. I sent him.
and the barrel he did it with was a .920 diameter Shilen.

So I don't feel I need to debate or discuss what is two different ways to tune a rifle , I have done it both ways and found as others have a lighter tuner works better, just like Marty has been saying all these years.

I do want to say Thanks Marty for being so patient all these years as you tried to make me understand what you were doing. I am not at 100% but I am getting there from what I am seeing!

Lee
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