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  #16  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:30 AM
vlnbyr

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I suggest you also try Google and Wikipedia and compare results. You got a crash course in mid-barrel tuners and didn't have to leave the house, spend a dime, or fire a single shot. You should be over the moon.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:46 PM
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I suggest you also try Google and Wikipedia and compare results. You got a crash course in mid-barrel tuners and didn't have to leave the house, spend a dime, or fire a single shot. You should be over the moon.
I'm not over the moon. My wife gave me the same advice and she didn't have to leave the house, spend a dime, fire a single shot, or even post a question on RFC's Bench Techniques and Equipment. The only difference was that she didn't mean to be unconstructive. I take no offense from your easy irritability. I hope you get better tasting corn flakes.

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  #18  
Old 08-09-2019, 06:00 PM
kseatm
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Thanks, Lee. That's the kind of information that is helpful.

To be clear, I'm not looking for a thumbs up or a thumbs down when it comes to mid barrel tuners. (There not easily available here anyway as they are export restriced.) Nor am I asking if it would work on any rifle in particular.

I'm simply looking for information: how do they work, are they essentially movable weights, do they work alone or best with a tuner. I'm also wondering if many BR shooters use them. I learned that apparently some do and some don't.

I didn't anticipate equivocation and ambivalence. As I said above my wife could have told me with conviction that a mid barrel tuner might work or it might not. But perhaps I missed the point. Perhaps inscrutability is the nature of the MBT. It might work, but no one knows why it does or doesn't -- or at least they aren't posting here. In the end, mid barrel tuners seem a little more enigmatic than expected.
I can give you my thoughts from using them...but not smart enough to be able to answer the why or how they work questions.

I've used them, along with two of my good friends. Have personally used Charlie Scott's model, which is slightly shorter and a different configuration from the Pappas or other models. I think his (Charlie's) use different rubber too. Have only used the SS models, never messed with the aluminum model he sells (or sold, not sure if he still does that).

I think of them sort of like a more advanced limbsaver. Not sure you've seen or used those, but basically the same principe. Another option is to use actual o rings or rubber grommets as sort of a poor man's limbsaver. Have seen differences in how the gun(s) shot with all of these options.

I do think they make a difference. But, and here's where subjectivity comes into play, I decided I didn't like the ideal that any variation might be induced into the equation. Mainly because of the tension of the screws that hold the things onto the barrel. I know the instructions that come with the Scott tuner say to basically snug up the screws and then add something like one or two turns to ensure they're tight. Can't remember exactly what they say as it's been awhile since I read them. I tried that, but the darn thing kept sliding down the barrel if I left the gun sitting upright for any extended amount of time. So, started using a torque wrench and setting the screws to different torques to see the effect. And tension on the screws makes a huge difference. At least on the guns I used the tuners on. Location is important, but it really did make a huge difference on screw tension too. Which kind of led me away from using them.

I tested this out by setting the torque to 10 inch lbs on the screws and shot a target for score. I then cleaned the gun, set up for another target and checked the torque of the screws. Not even close to 10 inch lbs! Shot another target for score without adjusting the torque, then cleaned and shot another target after resetting the screw torque. Tried this several cycles while using different amounts of torque. Also tried shooting for score with the tuner clamped down tight on the barrel. And I mean tight!

In the end, when just one half a turn on the screws would make the gun shoot better or worse, I decided to just go away from using the things. Not saying they don't work as I personally know several people who do very well with them. Some use one, some use two. Some just snug the tuners up according to directions, some clamp them down as tight as they can get them.

Are they worth using? Honestly in my opinion, maybe? How's that for definitive? I do know they make a difference. You can see it on the target when testing them. But, have won matches using them, but have won matches without them too.

I've sold most of my BR stuff, but think I still have one of these. If you want to give one a go, pm your address and I'll send it up (or down, not sure where you live). Try it and see for yourself if it's worth exploring.

Kenny
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2019, 07:39 PM
vlnbyr

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The fact that you realize your wife's opinion is as good as mine or anyone else's shows the light is beginning to come on. Just trying to shine my light on the rabbit holes so you don't fall into one and end up in another world.
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:23 PM
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The fact that you realize your wife's opinion is as good as mine or anyone else's shows the light is beginning to come on. Just trying to shine my light on the rabbit holes so you don't fall into one and end up in another world.
Altruistic concern is always welcome. Of course my wife gives the same answer to everything shooting-related as she doesn't shoot, let alone know anything about shooting. But since I can't get a MBT there appears to be little danger of falling into that potential rabbit hole. For that and the money likely saved my missus would no doubt appreciate the caution as well.

Kenny, thanks for the very generous offer. Unfortunately sending a MBT or a tuner or other similar device, even scopes or barrels, would violate ITAR rules which forbid the unauthorized export of these kinds of items. Nevertheless, I want to express my appreciation for sharing your valuable experiences and insights with regard to the subject.
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  #21  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:34 PM
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If you need the information and the help, Kenny is the man to ask
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  #22  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:31 AM
vlnbyr

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There is a real lesson here and it is once you have your 3 lug Stiller Turbo Shillen Muller with a heavy lite tuner, two mid-barrels, combo 6 and 12 ignition, in a traditional straightline wood fulfill stock and go to the bench you still have to be able to shoot. This is the Benchrest rabbit hole and it is all too easy to get sucked into all the side issues and end up tilting at windmills.
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  #23  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
There is a real lesson here and it is once you have your 3 lug Stiller Turbo Shillen Muller with a heavy lite tuner, two mid-barrels, combo 6 and 12 ignition, in a traditional straightline wood fulfill stock and go to the bench you still have to be able to shoot. This is the Benchrest rabbit hole and it is all too easy to get sucked into all the side issues and end up tilting at windmills.
This is so True! I am a good example. if I was to exchange my rifle with any top 5 shooter and used his rifle shooting his ammo, I would still get my butt kicked big time

As John was trying to say in his own way, don't get wrapped up on trends. time at the bench is the best way to get where you want to go with results you want.

Lee
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  #24  
Old 08-10-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
There is a real lesson here and it is once you have your 3 lug Stiller Turbo Shillen Muller with a heavy lite tuner, two mid-barrels, combo 6 and 12 ignition, in a traditional straightline wood fulfill stock and go to the bench you still have to be able to shoot. This is the Benchrest rabbit hole and it is all too easy to get sucked into all the side issues and end up tilting at windmills.
Indeed. Another lesson might be to disregard questions for which one has low regard or perhaps contempt.

I've never seen a barrel tuner either except for those I have. I've never seen another front rest or a rear bag (not to mention one piece rests) other than what I have myself. I've never seen a .22LR shooter using ammo that didn't have names like Winchester, CCI, or Remington on the package. I've never seen a heavy barrel rimfire ostensibly designed for bench shooting other than my own -- even if it's only a factory rifle and not a custom rig like the fantasist's version described above or a more realistic one like most competitive shooters are pleased to use. I've never seen anyone shoot rimfire benchrest, nor am I likely to since no one does it anywhere near where I live.

When practical experience with something like mid barrel tuners is all but impossible, when there is no one to talk to in person, no one to watch using one, there is precious little else to do other than to ask questions on a forum like this.

I understand that there are no easy answers. I understand that the best answers can only come through hard won experience. I understand that in rimfire there are few hard and fast rules that explain everything, that there is no equivalent of a cosmological constant to account for everything.

Ironically, when questions become windmills to tilt at then the circle is complete. Having never seen a mid barrel tuner, I thought I'd ask about them. There should be no harm in that. Several posters were generous enough to share their opinions and views about the subject and that has been very helpful and much appreciated. Perhaps the real shortcoming here is tilting at the windmill of irreverent or perplexing responses. For that I apologize.
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  #25  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:01 PM
vlnbyr

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Penage...I know you are up there in BR no mans land, I've read most of your previous posts and that's why I gave the advice I did. It's your gear and you can do whatever you want whenever you want. John
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  #26  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:54 PM
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Several of these responses are exactly why most of the best shooters stay off these forums.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:40 AM
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Several of these responses are exactly why most of the best shooters stay off these forums.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:14 PM
404tbang
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Indeed. Another lesson might be to disregard questions for which one has low regard or perhaps contempt.

I've never seen a barrel tuner either except for those I have. I've never seen another front rest or a rear bag (not to mention one piece rests) other than what I have myself. I've never seen a .22LR shooter using ammo that didn't have names like Winchester, CCI, or Remington on the package. I've never seen a heavy barrel rimfire ostensibly designed for bench shooting other than my own -- even if it's only a factory rifle and not a custom rig like the fantasist's version described above or a more realistic one like most competitive shooters are pleased to use. I've never seen anyone shoot rimfire benchrest, nor am I likely to since no one does it anywhere near where I live.

When practical experience with something like mid barrel tuners is all but impossible, when there is no one to talk to in person, no one to watch using one, there is precious little else to do other than to ask questions on a forum like this.

I understand that there are no easy answers. I understand that the best answers can only come through hard won experience. I understand that in rimfire there are few hard and fast rules that explain everything, that there is no equivalent of a cosmological constant to account for everything.

Ironically, when questions become windmills to tilt at then the circle is complete. Having never seen a mid barrel tuner, I thought I'd ask about them. There should be no harm in that. Several posters were generous enough to share their opinions and views about the subject and that has been very helpful and much appreciated. Perhaps the real shortcoming here is tilting at the windmill of irreverent or perplexing responses. For that I apologize.
Penage Guy,
I have always thought the mid barrel tuners simply relied upon weight, not damping, to have an effect, if indeed they have an effect, upon the barrel. I may be right, I may be wrong. Really, I think they don't add a whole lot to the process. I may be right, I may be wrong. However, since it seems you can't get one up there from down here to experiment with, I can give you this idea to ponder.

If indeed the mid barrel tuner has an effect because of weight, you can try this with supplies that should be available to you.

Get a set of rings that fit your barrel. Yes, your barrel. Shim them if necessary. Drill and tap a section of cut off rifle barrel four or five inches long, or a piece of metal to which you can attach bases or better yet a rail. Attach the bases or rail to the section of cut off barrel, attach rings to the bases, attach the rings to the rifle barrel. Do NOT over tighten the rings to the barrel. This can distort the bore. You can verify this by slugging the bore. You will likely feel where you have attached the rings. Locate the rings where you want to begin experimenting. Shoot for awhile. Change the location of the contraption. Shoot for awhile. See if you can find a sweet spot. You can experiment with different locations on the barrel. You can also set a ring on the end of the barrel, or near it, and have weight projecting in front of the barrel. I suspect you will find it possible to have similar results to a Harrel's tuner if you try it this way with the correct amount of weight. If you have a rail mounted to a cut off section of barrel mounted to the rings, then you can move the rings on the rail to make a longer section of the cut off barrel protrude in front of the muzzle of your barrel. What I am getting at is that you can make this completely adjustable for the purpose of experimentation.

If a mid barrel tuner actually does anything because of weight, you will see something in time. Ultimately, I believe you will find that you will be better served with a Harrel's tuner. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. However, if the mid barrel tuner does anything because of weight, this will allow you the opportunity to experiment. Hope that helps some.

Greg
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