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  #61  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:54 PM
Hovannes
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It is best to think of HD in layers of protection.
Exterior lighting, challenging landscapes,maybe CCTV
Good exterior doors and locks and flashlight
backed up by a pooch an alarm with panic button followed by blunt force and a handgun, maybe a boomstick.
The thing is having multiple layers.
And there you go!
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GTS225 View Post
Hmmm. Interesting to read, and also helpful, but.......the general consensus seems to be nothing smaller than 20g, and there's been no mention of the legalities of loads. (I'm speaking here of "less-than-lethal" first shot rounds for legal status protections.)
Not sure where this is going? The "legalities of loads"? I'm assuming that most of the people on this forum that are using a shotgun for HD have them loaded with perfectly legal loads. On the other hand you mention "less than-lethal" loads which it is my understanding that unless your LE most of these are less than legal. I've spoken with many firearms trainers and professionals over the years about the subject of what to do in the event that you ever did have to use deadly force. The general consensus I've received is to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. You know the whole their word against yours thing works better when they only have your word......just saying.
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:29 PM
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Did not read all the posts.. but, mine is Rem 870 12G.. loaded with #4 Buck... legal length/sawed off and pistol gripped.
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  #64  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:06 AM
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Rifle vs shotgun

Quote:
Originally Posted by I6turbo View Post
LOL Was this video made specifically for you???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI

This video is only a comparison of the advantages of a shotgun over a rifle. No reference to how a handgun would compare. Great video though. My preference is a handgun, not based on lethality but on practicality.
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  #65  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:43 AM
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Better choices

[QUOTE=Test_Engineer;11567545]I'd wager you have never known anybody shot with either a pistol or a shotgun. Unfortunately, I know families that have had members killed by both, and other members injured by both. Simple fact is no pistol slug has the raw stopping power of a load of 6 or 8 shot. And your aim doesn't need to be as accurate to inflict major damage.

Not arguing the effectiveness of the .12 or .20 gauge compared to pistol rounds at all. You're missing the point of how a pistol is quicker and more maneuverable inside a home.


No, but every patrol car I know of has a shotgun in a front seat rack. Kinda tells me something also.

The shotguns typically stay in the rack and if the LE needs a long gun, the AR is deployed. Shotguns have too much liability with buckshot and are mostly used with breacher and less than lethal loads. Dynamic entry is done with light equipped handguns. Don't get me wrong, I like shotguns but it is secondary to my house gun which is a pistol. I can deploy it the fastest and my other hand is free to open doors, push panic alarm button or fend off an attack. Like others have stated, layers of protection, and escalation of force if necessary. Ask yourself if your door is being kicked in , how fast from a dead sleep can you process what's happening and react to it?


Hollywood definitely takes liberties with things like wheel guns firing 20+ rounds without a reload, but it's no trick that racking a pump gun takes the fight out of most people without ever needing to fire a shot. The key is to perform the rack only after you have the drop on them.

You can rack a handgun too.
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  #66  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:09 AM
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Remington V3 TAC-13: semi-auto, 12 ga., 13" barrel.
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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"What do you all like for a home defense shotgun? Concerns are: over-penetration, ability to point, etc. Semi-auto or pump?"

My preference would be for either a pump or SxS with double triggers
A pump because that was what I was trained to shoot, or a double because of redundancy and compactness.

Over penetration seems to be a product of the size shot being launched---smaller shot being less penetrating. The main issue being the ability of a cartridge to stop the threat, where the larger the shot, the more likely the immediate end to the hostilities.
Bird shot at a distance can leave a gruesome wound but not discourage an attacker (consider a perp on meth) unlike larger Buck.
At close range, 1-1/8 ounce of lead is 1-1/8 ounce of lead no matter the size of the individual shot, but that is at very close range.
LEOs are issued Buck shot so I'll take my cue from them, but for HD consider the size of your interior rooms and the construction of your home's walls---Buck can easily go through sheet rock with plenty of "oomph" left over.
In my simplistic way of looking at things, I don't stress over shot size other than to differentiate between bird shot and buck shot---it's either "bird" or "buck" and while the technically oriented may appreciate the finer distinctions between, say, No.3 and 00 Buck , or #7.5 and #4 bird shot, I see it more as a distraction from the nitty gritty of HD---either Buck or Bird, it's your decision.

Point-ability depends on how the gun fits you. Short barrels are faster and less clumsy inside the home, which is a strong case for SxS shotguns. Pumps can be kept "cruiser ready"but I would not recommend a shotgun to be kept loaded with a round chambered---it is just too dangerous!

I have no thoughts on semiautos other than gas operated guns might help mitigate recoil a wee bit, if that's an issue.

For gauges, 12,16 & 20 are all formidable and even the .410 will work, but you'll end up paying a premium for sizes other than the 12 and the 20 and you'll find dealers likely won't offer much variety in loadings.

As to the shotgun vs pistol debate, my preference is for pistols but pistols require considerable training to maintain expertise. Shotguns don't.
Also purchasing a shotgun will often be less restricted in communities with unfortunate state and local laws. OTOH a pistol may be kept secure in a locked box when you're not at home while a shotgun will require something larger due to it's size.

My thoughts, of course YMMV.
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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I own 9 different shotguns of all flavors. Pumps, Doubles, and singles, .410 to 12 gauge. All are HD guns to me. They're all loaded, most with #6 shot except for the little sawn-off by the bed. It's loaded with #4 buck for my "first line of defense". That should hold 'em off just long enough for me to get to my 30-30. Then, there'll just be one story: mine. Honestly, a true "HD" shotgun would probably be better for my use, but I don't like any of the newer options and I would hate myself for lopping the barrel off an old Winchester, Remington, or the like.

Now before anyone tries to hang me, yes all my guns are loaded. Rifles, pistols, and shotguns. They aren't any good if they're empty. We don't have kids, and seldom ever have adult guests, let alone guests with young 'uns. And, we live in a rural area, so over penetration is the least of my worries. As a matter of fact, home invasion isn't very high on the list either. The biggest threat around here is wild/feral critters harassing the livestock and raiding my garden. For that common-place chore, I keep a full-choke single shot 16 gauge behind the kitchen door, loaded with #6 shot. It has never had any trouble taking care of business on varmints large or small, so I would go so far as to say that it would do fine on two-legged predators also.

I can say I have discharged a shotgun indoors (albeit in a barn, not a house) and the noise will deafen you for a few days. I don't recommend trying it, honestly. Unfortunately I've also seen what a 1.25 ounce load of #6 shot can do to a man at 20 steps (I was not involved, just happened to come onto the scene of the accident). Shotguns are, in my opinion, the quickest way to make something dead. Especially up close. I might even go out on a limb and say they are the deadliest small arm in existance (smg's notwithstanding), as far as survivability. According to a LEO friend, you have a 7/10 chance of surviving a pistol wound, 5/10 a rifle wound, and a 1/10 chance with a shotgun. Ditch the shotgun? I think not.

Mac

Last edited by dutchmac; 08-08-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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  #69  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:26 PM
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A lot of good points made here about the shotgun.

For me - the starting point is "Whatever you already have".... That includes an old single shot miscellaneous shotgun. 99% of criminals have no desire to fight somebody with a shotgun pointed at them... There's not much you can do with the crazies except make sure you shoot before they get to you. You will probably only get one shot - so let the first shot serve as a warning to their friends...

My next step past "Whatever you already have" is buying a dedicated short barrel for your shotgun like what Sophia showed. That would be the ticket vs a regular 28 of 30" duck barrel. It's at least manageable.

If you are buying something - buy something you like and will be proud to own and could use for shooting clays, bird hunting, or varmint control. I personally would stay with 1st quality stuff and not cheap knock off's.... Used or new is fine - just pick your poison.... I would personally go with something that has solid parts and barrels support but is not a valuable antique/collectible... Don't go cut down a 1925 Winchester Model 12 or your grand-dad's Parker Brothers...

But it's your choice - if you ABSOLUTELY have to have something antique or collectible like a genuine WWII trench gun or an ex-police riot gun - I won't stop you...

Last edited by truckjohn; 08-08-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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  #70  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:41 PM
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I know a few LEO's whose main load for the shotgun is Federal Truflite 00 buck. The Truflites have half the spread of a normal 00 load so they have longer range.
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  #71  
Old 08-08-2019, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchmac View Post
I can say I have discharged a shotgun indoors (albeit in a barn, not a house) and the noise will deafen you for a few days. I don't recommend trying it, honestly. Unfortunately I've also seen what a 1.25 ounce load of #6 shot can do to a man at 20 steps (I was not involved, just happened to come onto the scene of the accident). Shotguns are, in my opinion, the quickest way to make something dead. Especially up close. I might even go out on a limb and say they are the deadliest small arm in existance (smg's notwithstanding), as far as survivability. According to a LEO friend, you have a 7/10 chance of surviving a pistol wound, 5/10 a rifle wound, and a 1/10 chance with a shotgun. Ditch the shotgun? I think not.

Mac
You and I are in complete agreement.

I've known victims of gun violence on 3 occasions:

1) I was about 13 and spent this evening playing board games with my best friend and his family. His mom offered to call my mom and see if it would be okay for me to spend the night. I politely declined the offer and went home for dinner. If I had stayed, I'd probably be dead.

After a murder/suicide that night, my friend was the only survivor. He suffered a 12ga shot in the upper left leg and a second shot blew his right ear off. He survived by "playing dead". He was in the hospital for 3 months and the damage to his leg was truly gruesome. His (divorced) dad came down from Alaska and moved him up there upon his release. I'm sure he spent a lot of time in therapy and will never walk normally again.

2) About 8 years ago, a friend committed suicide with a 9mm. He had a good job, was recently engaged, and seemed pretty happy. There was no indication he was suffering from depression at all.

The round exited his head (parked in the garage) and passed thru the wall into his fiancé's leg in the living room. She was hospitalized for 5 days.

3) About 3 years ago, a friend and his son went to a Trump rally in Denver. The had just parked and were walking across the parking lot when they were gunned down. My friend died, but his son survived. He had been shot 7 times with a .40 and was hospitalized for 6 weeks. He limps a little now, but no longer needs a cane. He has since gotten married.

It's important to note that nobody shot directly in the head survived either a shotgun blast, or a pistol slug. But the damage to the human body from a shotgun blast is beyond imagination. Truly horrific.

God bless the trauma surgeons!

One other note regarding bright lights on home defense guns. You're MUCH better off with a bright strobe light. The strobe has the effect of confusing and disorienting the human brain - at least for a few seconds. That can buy you the advantage over an armed home intruder. A solid light just presents a target to aim toward IMO.
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  #72  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:15 PM
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Just out of curiosity Mr. Flangster.... why are you fishing shotgun ideas instead of handgun ideas?
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  #73  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Engineer View Post
A solid light just presents a target to aim toward IMO.
Need a brighter light TE.
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  #74  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:57 PM
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Just out of curiosity Mr. Flangster.... why are you fishing shotgun ideas instead of handgun ideas?
Ah. I have several CF handguns that I shoot regularly. Springfield TRP in .45 ACP, CZ 75 BD in 9mm and so on. And a revolver or two (.38 Special, .357 etc.) I don't generally do timed drills, but I am confident that I can hit what I am aiming at within 15-30 yards. However, I only started shooting about six years ago, and just have no experience with a shotgun. So I asked the question as a way of tapping into the community of more experienced shooters here at RFC. And you can see from the comments above that folks have responded with their usual generosity -- sharing their knowledge and opinions.

When I started shooting it was with a .22, and I built myself a backstop out of 3/4 plywood -- I was amazed to see the humble .22 LR bullet go right through four sheets of that stuff stacked, hardly pausing. Quite apart from the RFC (and elsewhere) debate about the suitability of .22 LR for home defense, I would be very, very reluctant to do home defense with a round that penetrates what our house is made of so easily. We've got kids and pets, and I don't have x-ray vision. So I started thinking in general terms about solving the penetration problem. Although I am reluctant to take any Internet-info without a serious fact-check, RFC is a good place to start. I have a lot of respect for the practical experience of the RFC-hive mind.

Still not sure a scattergun is for me, but the thread has been very helpful so far.
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  #75  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
A cheap 20 or 12ga. pump with an 'upland' barrel and 'turkey loads' would likely be fine, probably overkill.....and you would be needing some remodeling after the mess.
I would think rock-salt loads indoors would be plenty but imagine the court case for those reloads,"honest, I didnt want to kill him, just season him a bit".
This.
You should be able to a find a pump Mossberg 500 or Remington fairly inexpensively. plus they always seem to go on sale at the chain stores, 20ga is ample IMHO, (and easier on my prosthetic shoulders). I pickup up a mossberg 500 20ga, composite stock with an 18" and a standard barrel included as combo pack for 270 or something at Big 5 in CA.
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