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  #31  
Old 05-10-2019, 02:35 PM
jaia
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There ya' are BG, thought you'd left us..

No offense or outrage taken.
Ya' offered y'er opinion and I took the time to read it through, each post.

If'n ya' wonder why I climb in and disagree with the claims of consistent moa or sub-moa
it's because I've never seen anyone who's been able to accomplish it with the 22wmr.
As to world class shootists, which I am most definitely not,
they don't attempt to use the 22wmr for precision shooting due to the problems I keep pointing out.
Y'er welcome to ignore my comments, if it strays from y'er viewpoint.

I'm simply attempting to find some folks willing to post results using 22wmr that show
that there is 22wmr ammo out there that is capable of producing consistent sub-moa, as has been claimed.

I won't play the polite "wink-wink" forum game of letting accuracy claims slide.
If you make the claim of "all day long" put up some results to substantiate it.
5 shots is not all day long, nor is 10. Just sayin', eh?

If you really don't want to read anything that disagrees with y'er personal viewpoint
there is an option or two available to you. #1 - Show us what can be done by a skilled shooter
with a first class rifle and a decent batch of 22wmr ammo...or...#2 - Use that ignore button in y'er control panel.

As for me, being an annoying old coot who doesn't much worry about being politically correct
if you make the claim of all day long, I'm going to call you on it. My response will always be: Show me.

No worries BG, enjoy y'er day. Later

Last edited by jaia; 05-10-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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  #32  
Old 05-10-2019, 04:12 PM
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As Sgt. Joe Friday used to say, "All we want are the facts (ma'am)"; (Does that make me 'old enough'?).
Even 50 rounds is statistically lame though certainly more valid an indicator than 5-10.
The search for truth is a never ending quest against the current of human nature.

Last edited by gcrank1; 05-10-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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  #33  
Old 05-10-2019, 05:32 PM
profsrgary

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I think is important to remember that the accuracy potential of a rifle isn't dictated by a single lot of ammo. I have a RAR that will shoot sub moa with a good lot of ammo and 2 moa with a bad lot. From shooting mine I have learned several things about ammo I buy. I always buy 40 grain. I don't care if the 30 grain puts 10 shots through 1 hole at 100 yards. I hunt with 40 grain. I buy none online. I don't care how cheap. I buy a box at the lgs and try it and if it shoots well I get more of the same lot. Now the next two things may be just a coincidence but I have noticed them to be true in my case. The 40 grain that comes packaged 200 rounds to a box (Swamp People) stinks. It doesn't shoot even close to the 50 round plastic box stuff. The other thing is that there is a lgs about 45 min drive from me and the 22 mag ammo that I get there shoots better than anything I get anywhere else. No explanation just what I have found. And again since the 22 mag IS a hunting round cold barrel/first shot accuracy is more important than what size 50 shot group my rifle will shoot. That being said I will take the 50 shot challenge when time permits. And Jaja all of your effort is appreciated.
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  #34  
Old 05-10-2019, 09:00 PM
Bradical
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The ground hogs are out and so is my 640k. I had a chance to get to the range and make sure all is dialed in. I had thought I found a really good lot of Hornady's 45g Critical Defense. Last year's box shot consistently under 1.5" radius. So rounds were all landing inside a 3" circle, I give this performance a C grade. Under a 2.5" circle (1.25" radius) is a B grade and gives me a much high probability to dispatch said ground hog with a head shot at or below 100 yards. But, this evening, once sighted in, I couldn't keep this box under a 2" radius. Not very satisfying.

I'm now considering buying an accurate loading/jewelers scale to weigh and carefully inspect all rounds I have left. Maybe I'll be able to filter out those manufactured "flyers."

Last edited by Bradical; 05-10-2019 at 09:02 PM.
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  #35  
Old 05-10-2019, 09:23 PM
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I suggest you review the prior threads regarding weighing and sorting, etc of rf ammo before committing and engaging in it.
Short story is, if it worked about everybody here would be doing it and it would be ALL Over This Site And The Internet that it is the thing to do.
It Aint.
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  #36  
Old 05-10-2019, 09:57 PM
Bradical
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Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
I suggest you review the prior threads regarding weighing and sorting, etc of rf ammo before committing and engaging in it.
Short story is, if it worked about everybody here would be doing it and it would be ALL Over This Site And The Internet that it is the thing to do.
It Aint.
Well that's just swell. What's a boy to do?

I guess some ground hogs will just be lucky.
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  #37  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:40 PM
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I was too quick with that....there is a value to sorting out/culling the visually bad rounds looking for the obvious flaws and giving regard to crooked seated bullets.
But after that we are at the mercy of the assembly line .
I use culls to season a bore and warm myself up/practice so all is not lost. Thankfully the groundhogs arent shooting back so if some get away its Ok.
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  #38  
Old 05-11-2019, 12:03 AM
Bradical
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Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
I was too quick with that....there is a value to sorting out/culling the visually bad rounds looking for the obvious flaws and giving regard to crooked seated bullets.
But after that we are at the mercy of the assembly line .
I use culls to season a bore and warm myself up/practice so all is not lost. Thankfully the groundhogs arent shooting back so if some get away its Ok.
Roger, all that.
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  #39  
Old 05-11-2019, 12:56 PM
jaia
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Professor, I'll be watching for y'er target.

Bradical, take the time and do a serious inspection of a box of 22wmr.
Caliper and scale to check dimensions and weight. Pull a few apart.
Powder weights will be very tight, bullets will have a bit of variations.
Primer amounts are visibly different and application location varies.
Brass dimensions aren't consistent and bullet seating depths/angles vary.
These cartridges are mass produced as fast as possible for use as hunting ammo.
Minimal quality control and absolutely no lot grading.
Factory testing is for function and chamber pressure, not mv spread.

I just finished up my last box of 22wmr testing at 200 yards.
Every flavor I could get my hands on, over the past 10 months.
The ammo I was sold was adequate for it's intended use.
Center of critter out to 75 yards.
None of it was a consistent moa or sub-moa "all day long."
2 or 3 tight together, then a stray due to a major mv shift or asymmetric cartridge.
By the end of 50 shots there would be a core group with odd outliers.
That pattern repeated itself with each box tested.
Yes I'd get a few groupings that by themselves were astoundingly good.
Similar muzzle velocities and minimal cartridge defects means similar trajectories.
But compared to the overall results from the entire box, simply random acts of accuracy.

It's rimfire, the quality of manufacture is out of our hands.

Last edited by jaia; 05-11-2019 at 02:09 PM.
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  #40  
Old 05-11-2019, 01:37 PM
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Something we can not forget is the fact that two rifles can shoot the exact same lot very differently because of barrel harmonics. For example rifle A shoots lot X well even though there is 150 fps extreme spread and rifle B shoots the same lot X ammo poorly. Why? The ammo is leaving the barrel of rifle A while it is traveling upward so the slower rounds leave the barrel later or when the barrel is raised higher thus compensating for the slower bullet speed. The barrel of rifle B is moving downward when the bullet leaves so the slower round leaves the barrel later which makes poi even lower than it should be. When reloading we use the same care to load different loads consistently yet get sub moa and plus 2 moa groups with all components the same including the powder type. The only thing done differently is the powder charge. I find it amazing I can go sub moa to 2 moa plus with as little as 1.5 grains difference in a centerfire rifle. This is why I buy one box of rimfire, test and then either buy more or save it for the handgun.
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  #41  
Old 05-11-2019, 02:07 PM
jaia
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No argument Professor.
When dealing with a free floated barrel dwell time is important.
I don't use free floated barrels. I like barrel block rigs.
Receiver is free floated, barrel is locked down.
Minimizes barrel harmonics.
I know, I've always been contrary.
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  #42  
Old 05-11-2019, 03:06 PM
Bradical
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Prof, my son has a free floated CZ455 with an 18" barrel. While I'm using a free floated Mossberg 640K with a 24" barrel. I don't remember the twist rates of each. Only that they're different. His rifle shoots tighter with the Hornady VMax 30g. While mine prefers 40g + . Clearly these rounds move at different speeds and they're like ringing different bells with different size hammers. But, also, these .22 bullet shapes aren't the most desirable shape. Ballistic coefficient is not something as important for 100 yard work when considering the speed of these rounds.

Jaia, therefore, I'm not to sure about the usefulness for accuracy testing lobbing these little rounds 300 yards is. Granted, your results do appear to mimic my experience at 100 yards.

I'm going to sort through the boxes I have left, a few bricks, to see if I can filter out the obvious anomalies. Hopefully, I'll find 60% that will be capable of sub 1.25" at 100 yards.

Last edited by Bradical; 05-11-2019 at 07:05 PM.
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  #43  
Old 05-11-2019, 03:28 PM
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Haha, and if you are like me by the time you find that couple of boxes and verify it does whatchawant it will be gone, or almost gone
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  #44  
Old 05-11-2019, 03:53 PM
bucko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
No argument Professor.
When dealing with a free floated barrel dwell time is important.
I don't use free floated barrels. I like barrel block rigs.
Receiver is free floated, barrel is locked down.
Minimizes barrel harmonics.
I know, I've always been contrary.
There it is! Thanks Jaia. Sometime ago I asked in a thread if anyone still floated a receiver and bedded the barrel like they did way back in the day. I didn't get any info and was beginning to think I was nuts! I still have one done that way a long, long time ago. Sorry if off topic, I'll hush now.
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  #45  
Old 05-11-2019, 04:05 PM
jaia
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Bucko, do a search for my build of the Fuglie and Son of Fuglie on RFC.
Both are barrel block rigs. Still in use in the RFC Long Range forum.
See the 50 at 200 thread. My 455 Varmint is a bedded barrel also.
Had to in order to be able to use a bipod and stop the springboard effect.

Last edited by jaia; 05-11-2019 at 04:08 PM.
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