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  #1  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:34 PM
Oldblades
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CZ 452 Trainer muck



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"Come into my parlor said the spider to the fly"

I swore to never do another CZ stock but I couldnt help myself. I recently acquired a near new CZ trainer stock thats just been killing me. The mad mudder at CZ splashed muck all over an exceptional piece of beech, and with that I havent been able to bring myself to mount the action to it. Just looked terrible.
So with the discovery of a lacquer topcoat, I just had to take that off. Now I'm left with the hard black mud underneath.........to an extreme.
Best bait and switch I ever fallen for. Giving a hint of what the reward is, but not without paying a price.

Does anyone have a solution (yet) to the mystery of this hard muck undercoat removal short of sanding?
Also, I'm not sure what it is and would love a heads up that if I try and go after it, the depth of penetration.
ie: am I gonna end up with a toothpick?

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:16 PM
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With interest I follow owning a beautiful piece of blotched up beech.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:36 PM
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"Muck"

Knowing you I am going to assume you cleaned the finish first via

https://rimfirecentral.com/rfcftp/sto...0A%20STOCK.pdf

tested it second, confirmed it was lacquer and then used an ORIGINAL FORMULA Lacquer Thinner, not anything in a plastic container and then soaked etc. like your post here shows

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=494050

If so then you got me. I have never seen any gunstock or piece of furniture that was not contaminated with either Mineral Oil or liquid Silicone, with a lacquer finish that when it was removed that ended up with "gunk" looking like yours albeit seen some with a lot less "muck" on them when the stock was cleaned with like 409 or simple Green after the lacquer was stripped but before it had completely evaporated.

I could show pictures here of a couple of Beech trainers after the finish was removed but pretty useless since none of em every looked like yours so I won't. Ditto for furniture.

Almost looks like to me that for whatever reason they did not use lacquer. Happens some times especially if your supplier is screwing around with a possible poly replacement to save a few bucks.

Anschutz had some issues like that awhile back. Replaced the stocks.

That would account for the uneven coloring on the original stock. "Toner" polys are not easy to make and take much more expertise then toner lacquer. If it was a poly finish then using Lacquer Thinner is going to get all kinds of different results.

If'n it were mine I would put on some chemical paint stripper and see if that removes what is left on there.

Sanding would be the last result IMO.

Let us know how that works.

noremf(George)

PS: Really small chance but lacquer in it's liquid form does go bad if the formulation is not up to snuff.

Anywhere from 4 days to 12 months. I have seen that but never used it so I can't comment on what would the results would be like.

Last edited by noremf; 03-21-2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:48 PM
Oldblades
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I used Citistrip left on for about 4 hours George. I had hopes that it would take the lacquer and everything off in one batch. Great on the lacquer, didnt touch the muck though. As far as the cleaning goes, this stuff is some sort of basecoat. Harder than the wood itself I found out after the OP which adds to the PITA factor.
I'm not really against just sanding it off, but areas along the receiver rear sides are a bit thin in wood available. Afraid that will just disappear. Other place is the trigger guard inletting. If I can find something to take it off in those areas, I can just sand the rest. Besides, I found the stock, true to mass production standards, has a lot of flattening that could be done anyway.

Al, I had planned on keeping this thread going to the finish, good, bad, or all bad.

Last edited by Oldblades; 03-21-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:36 PM
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Paint strippers

Are you saying you used a paint stripper, specifically CitriStrip® instead of original formula lacquer thinner to remove the finish that was on the rifle?

George

Last edited by noremf; 03-23-2018 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:46 PM
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George, I was editing to keep up with your editing before, and I aint gonna edit again because you out edited me.

Yes sir, I just smeared the whole thing with citistrip (sp? I dunno) and let it sit for about 4 hours. Then scraped and scrubbed it down with LT.

Full scoop on this. I was putzing around with it and decided to see what finish it might be. I put some lacquer thinner (Sunnyside) on a cotton dobber and poked it into the bolt slot just to see if it discolored. Of course it was a little past damp and some LT got outside the bolt slot. The finish immediately hazed so I knew it was lacquer, Kinda surprised me.
I had done a early trainer (2001) that was straight lacquer and nothing else,

Thus my quandary when I found this crap underneath. Reminds me of the stuff under some 82G finishes. Lots more 'meat' on those stocks so one can just pour the coals to it,

I'm going to get into it on the buttstock tomorrow where I know I cant really run out of real estate if I'm careful.
Also thought about heat, but the long fibers scorch way to easy. Been there, done that and not worth the risk.

I have a couple more strippers to try, short of aircraft stripper, but dont want to get too carried away, Fading the lines in the wood would defeat the purpose of the project.
"when you're up to your arse in alligators, its hard to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp"

Last edited by Oldblades; 03-21-2018 at 10:50 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:02 PM
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Lacuer, lacquer thinner, paint strippers

Don't know why you were surprised that the 452 had a lacquer coating?

I published "finishes" by model type a number of times, directly from the CZ info from Slovakia.

Lacquer whether nitrocellulose or water borne is a discrete chemical and for all practical purposes is considered organic. It is designed to make the Laq excretions easier to use by adding a variety of chemicals.

It is not considered a safety hazard so it won't show up on any MSDS sheets. It also does not have a Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) number so you won't see that either.

Lacquer Thinner is also a discrete chemical and also does not have a CAS number. In order for it to work it has to simulate what the Laq insects secrete relative to the thinner/carrier in the lacquer itself which takes a number of chemicals some of which are safety hazards and some which are not and will show up in a MSDS sheet depending on that and the percentage of each of them in the product..

There are no chemical coatings strippers (paint strippers) that will effectively remove lacquer. None, nada!!!!! Soften maybe but not remove ala lift up so it will come off with the sludge and that stuff is going to go into the wood since it is not lifted off.

We went all through this in depth via emails etc. a few years ago.

You even wrote up a post on an effective way to remove lacquer for RFC which I reference often.

IMO and IME you cannot blame CZ for what your stock now looks like and I could have saved myself a lot of typing.

George

Last edited by noremf; 03-21-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:05 PM
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My UL had runs of what looked like poly stain that looked darker than the rest where no extra coating was. Sure looked like poly stain MUD. CZ said it didn't look out of the ordinary.
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Last edited by Al the Infidel; 03-21-2018 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:41 AM
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Another example of CZ USA not knowing what they are talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
My UL had runs of what looked like poly stain that looked darker than the rest where no extra coating was. Sure looked like poly stain MUD. CZ said it didn't look out of the ordinary.
Al, I know you have followed my "journey's into Hades" with CZUSA over the past years and what my opinions of the expertise of their customer service people which on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, I rate as maybe a 1 in a number of cases including finishes. As far as ammo goes they are a zero!

This is directly from Slovakia:



Have shown a number of times but will save you looking up those posts etc.

The 452's had the same wood species and finishes as the 455's but since they have been discontinued for the most part are not in this pic. Not all the rifles but pertinent to most of the questions on RFC.

Not yet updated for the MINISET series, which were new when I got this, but they told me they are also were toner lacquer finished and all "solid" wood models are Walnut.

Nothing those folks say surprises me anymore and if I have question I go to Slovakia to get a correct answer which when asked about finishes they said, and I quote, "there are no poly finishes and there never were..."

As far as not looking out of the ordinary that is a subjective decision based on limited education instead of an objective one based on a decent amount of expertise.

I am done with this thread.

George

Last edited by noremf; 03-22-2018 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:16 PM
Oldblades
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
We went all through this in depth via emails etc. a few years ago.

You even wrote up a post on an effective way to remove lacquer for RFC which I reference often.

IMO and IME you cannot blame CZ for what your stock now looks like and I could have saved myself a lot of typing.

George
Hey George, not blaming CZ at all! Just trying to figure out what the stuff might be and the best way to address it. And yes, regardless of what was supposed to/not happen, the Citrustrip bubbled the topcoat up so it could be scraped off. I typically use LT as a afterwash.
And the stuff in question is definitely a undercoat sealer that doesnt respond to chemical remover, Lacquer thinner, or heat.

As far as saving yourself a lot of typing goes, I have all 150 emails over 4 years saved and indexed. Thanks for that. Still appreciate it greatly.
You know me and I'm more into the process, and exploring different ways to do things, so please dont take offense on a topcoat removal variation from the standard.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:53 PM
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Black sandpaper time, and don't round the edges!!
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:49 PM
Oldblades
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
Black sandpaper time, and don't round the edges!!
As much as I tried to avoid it, I have just accepted that fact this past hour.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:23 PM
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Fibbed on last post this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldblades View Post
Hey George, not blaming CZ at all! Just trying to figure out what the stuff might be and the best way to address it. And yes, regardless of what was supposed to/not happen, the Citrustrip bubbled the topcoat up so it could be scraped off. I typically use LT as a afterwash.
And the stuff in question is definitely a undercoat sealer that doesnt respond to chemical remover, Lacquer thinner, or heat.

As far as saving yourself a lot of typing goes, I have all 150 emails over 4 years saved and indexed. Thanks for that. Still appreciate it greatly.
You know me and I'm more into the process, and exploring different ways to do things, so please dont take offense on a topcoat removal variation from the standard.
I fibbed on my "last post".

Scott;

I spent at least an hour trying to create a post that was the least confrontational that I could make it so Master "JEE" would not have to delete my post. Even typed a number of them on RFC and even used a word processor to see what they looked like. I failed.

The only real value of this thread is a reference of what not to do.

George

Last edited by noremf; 03-22-2018 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:22 PM
Oldblades
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
As far as I am concerned you screwed up when you knew better and I do take offense about that.

The "sludge" you created will be darn (with the "r" removed and replaced with a "m") near as tough as at least an adhesive and maybe tougher.

The only good thing about your "exploring" as far as I am concerned is that the thread is something to reference as what not to do that has pictures.

JEE.....If you consider this post as being confrontational then feel free to delete it but I am going to keep the thread as a "don't do reference".

George
Actually, no I did not know the reasoning behind not using a chemical stripper on lacquer, so hence I did not know better.

JEE, no problems here leaving Georges post up. I've made mistakes before, will again, as in the past.
So if this is a definitely something not to do, I encourage Georges post to remain public to RFC. i'll take (another) one for the team.

All that said, I can see this thread is pointless to update periodically now, so I'll just summarize at the end once complete, with conclusions.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:25 PM
Oldblades
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
I fibbed on my "last post".

Scott;

I spent at least an hour trying to create a post that was the least confrontational that I could make it so Master "JEE" would not have to delete my post. Even typed a number of them on RFC and even used a word processor to see what they looked like. I failed.

The only real value of this thread is a reference of what not to do.

George
Too late, I got it covered for the most part.
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