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Old 04-28-2019, 01:43 AM
tdbru

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tandemKross vs mcarbo trigger spring kit



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I just acquired a Rem 597 "yellow jacket". not a total stranger to the 597. picked one up for my son when they first came out. he's not had any problems with it over all the years. anyway, i want to upgrade the trigger pull on the YJ. currently 3.5 lbs factory. i have seen ads for both the tandemKross and the mcarbo trigger spring kits. has anyone compared them side by side? they look the same. i understand the volquartsen hammer is highly recommended too.

has anyone glassed in the action and did it improve accuracy?
has anyone polished the underside of the bolt that rubs against the bullet nose? did that improve accuracy?

this YJ has a 5 groove 20" HB. when did Rem go to a 5 groove? and are these tubes hammer forged like the 700's?

the mag that came with it has the circle10 but still will only hold 9. are there mods that allow a full 10? and how does the mag come apart?

and about what should i expect for accuracy with match ammo? 1/10 MOA at 25 yards? (wishing).

has any one tried to substitute the heavier 22WMR bolt for the standard 22LR bolt on the 22LR to slow the cycle rate down? i realize the rim diameter is just slightly different. just wondering if anyone has done any experimenting.

if one isn't having problems with the factory extractor, just leave it? or is the volquartsen one highly recommended anyway (and why if the standard one is working)?

i'm looking forward to shooting and fiddling with this one. goal is to improve the trigger, and then get it to shoot as small of groups as i can.

thanks,
tdbru
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:01 PM
moreguns

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I put a Jard trigger system in mine. 1.5 pounds of joy.I installed a aftermarket extractor, polished the recoil spring rods. It always goes bang.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:45 PM
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Al the Infidel
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Welcome to RFC Tdbru!
Polishing the underside of the bolt and the edges of the hammer only improve cycling if there is an issue.
The bottom of the mag pops off with a thin blade screwdriver.
The 22Mag/17HMR bolt is way heavier than the 22 bolt and I doubt it would even cycle.
If you must have 10 rds in the mag trying forcing the 10th w/o deforming it, and let it sit for a few days, which may or may not help.
Bedding is a widely debated issue with 22 rf's. An improperly bedded one is a no-no.
1/4" c-c 5 shots groups @ 25 yds is outstanding, anything better is ala mode.
Hammer forging is quicker, easier, hence cheaper than other methods, so they say.
I've no experience with the trigger kits but read good things about em.
Good luck.
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:49 AM
tdbru

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thanks guys for the info.

with the thin blade screwdriver i got the mag apart and noticed a twisted spring. straightened it out. now holds 10 :-)

well, looks easy to epoxy bed. nice flat surfaces. will have to fill in the gaps with modeling clay before applying release to prevent negative draft issues. i think i'll do bedding.

i'll probably do a trigger kit too.

as far as the experiment with the mag bolt..... very tempting because i like to experiment.... so i haven't yet decided.

thanks again,
tdbru
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlysAlot View Post
NEVER OVER TIGHTEN THE BARREL NUT
!
Voice of experience, (with a new receiver) speakethe!
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:33 AM
tdbru

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thanks guys. i'll leave the barrel nut alone.

here's my reason for experimenting with a much slower bolt velocity.
if you notice this puppy cycles pretty fast. blink and you'll miss it. i think because of that the mouth of the rimfire case comes back far enough to clear the end of the breech before all the fire is done and as a result, there is a lot of powder residue on the bolt face, barrel breech face, and in that general area. i.e. a bit dirty. i am theorizing that if the bolt was much heavier it wouldn't move back as fast and the fire might die down by the time the bolt has moved far enough back for the case mouth to clear the breech face. thinking that might keep the action cleaner. and it would probably still cycle way faster than i could shoot it anyway. what think you guys?

if you haven't noticed i like tinkering and experimenting.

it may not group any tighter with bedding the action. if it doesn't i've lost nothing but a little time and bedding compound. if it helps, that all to the good.

i've looked at the videos, trigger/hammer kit looks straight forward to install.

thanks for the tip on the "keep shooting" magazines.

will be fun to see how this project goes together.

thanks,
tdbru
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:59 AM
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Semi-auto 22s are designed to blow back to cycle. Fast or slow they will get dirtier than a stick shift. Its the price one pays for fast or rapid follow up shooting.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
Voice of experience, (with a new receiver) speakethe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlysAlot View Post
Si!
Apologies for using you as the nail to hammer the point home FlysAlot.

IMA one can check to make sure the barrel wedge nut screw is snug but only snug. Anything over 30 inch pounds and one is asking for broken receiver ears which can not be repaired as Flys found out the hard way, thus requiring a new receiver, the only serial numbered part on the 597.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:06 AM
tdbru

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well, when i set the barrel + receiver only into the stock (made by boyd's), the action is free to move back and forth ~1/8" or so and also side to side. it was inletted generously to make assembly easy.

so i will glass it in. trigger parts look easy to upgrade. VQ/TK/MC etc. looking on this forum, it looks like others have tinkered with sear spring changes, sear stops, guide rod polishing, bolt mods, firing pin mods, bolt polishing, hammer mods, extractor replacements, stock changes, glass bedding, and more.

i feel like i'm in good company and right at home :-)

i enjoy tinkering/improving/tweaking. i don't think i have left anything alone for long. all the toys get tinkered/improved/modded. it's just my nature i guess. as good as it is, can i make it better??? or slightly different?? or lighter, or heavier , or ..... well, you guys at least understand.

another question along this line.... has anyone ever picked up two washers that slide on the guide rods with minimal clearance, and ground the outsides down to slip into the guide rod slots on the bolt to give the outside of the guide rod springs something to push against? if so, how did that work? that's a modification that looks like it's worth trying, and other than time, not expensive at all.

i would assume many before me have totally disassembled the trigger housing and dabbed a little oil/grease on everything that pivoted and reassembled?

thanks guys. i enjoy looking at what others have tried. as i get things done i'll try and let everyone know how it went.

thanks,
tdbru
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tdbru View Post
another question along this line.... has anyone ever picked up two washers that slide on the guide rods with minimal clearance, and ground the outsides down to slip into the guide rod slots on the bolt to give the outside of the guide rod springs something to push against? if so, how did that work? that's a modification that looks like it's worth trying, and other than time, not expensive at all.

Rem was putting bell shaped spring ends, aka trombone springs on newer 597 to halt springs getting caught up in the bolts when re-assembing. Dunno if they still do.

i would assume many before me have totally disassembled the trigger housing and dabbed a little oil/grease on everything that pivoted and reassembled?

thanks,
tdbru
Blast it with a good safe for plastic cleaner and then a dry lube. You don't want a wet lube to attract blowback residue in the trigger group. I've never taken my 19 yr old trigger completely apart and not many have via what I've read here for....OMG 13 years?
ETA the trigger group doesn't need a cleaning very often so I wouldn't monkey with it until you see heavy build up which should take many hundreds of rounds IME.
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Last edited by Al the Infidel; 05-02-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 10-11-2019, 11:04 PM
tdbru

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someone asked for a project update. well. grab a cup of Jo and let me ramble. or skip the reply if you're looking for a quick sound bite.

i wanted to install the 22 MAG bolt in my yellowjacket. thought was this. slow down the cycle rate. hypothesis was that a slow cycle rate would hopefully result in 2 things. 1. cleaner action. my reasoning was that the longer it took for the bolt to come back enough that the mouth of the case clears the chamber breech, the less crap would end up in the action due to the powder burning already done and pressure dropped more. if you watch a normal semi in low light, the chamber area always seems to spit fire. i.e. the powder is still burning when the case mouth clears the breech face. i thought that this leads to more residue being dumped into the action area. 2. lower noise near your ear. if the case mouth is clearing the breech face while there's still a lot of fire and pressure, it will be louder than if the pressure was much lower.

hence, the "project" began. Brownell's had, as it turned out, one 597 22Mag bolt in their parts inventory. i didn't know it until i ordered it. after i got it i looked and they were out of stock. and yes, they were pricey. Science experiments are not cheap. the picture of the bolt was a complete bolt. there were no notes otherwise to indicate it was a stripped bolt. well, it was a stripped bolt.

as i wanted to keep the stock bolt complete, i ordered all the small bolt parts too, after discovering that the picture didn't match the product. at least i could have 2 complete bolt assemblies. went with the Volquartsen extractor. the balance of the bolt small parts were standard 22RF parts. and while i was at it, the M-CARBO trigger kit (trigger spring, bushings, hammer).

well, first things first. the headspacing on a 22MAG is 0.050" if i recall. the back of the 597 barrel near the chamber is flat, so the entire headspacing is set by the bolt. if i recall it measured about 0.056" or so. this is way more than 22RF headspacing. i garnered from this web that a match chamber should have close to 0.042" headspace (zero headspace clearance if i recall). hmmm... i went down to ace and picked up a very large mill file and slowly with a lot of measuring took the bolt face down to 0.042". filing TUNGSTEN took a long long time and a lot of elbow grease and i wound up totally using up the file. i wore it out taking down the bolt face to 0.042". i think it took me about 4 hours of filing the bolt face, rotating it 1/8 of a turn, filing, repeat, etc. that was about all i got accomplished that weekend.

after that i fit the firing pin, made measurements, and started shortening the firing pin and rounding it on a diamond stone that i use for sharpening knives. (DMT). as it turned out i didn't quite take enough down as i mistakenly dry fired it at the range and saw a minute dimple. so i had to take the bolt apart and shorten and round the firing tip a bit more.

back to the bolt. after i got the headpace correct, but before i re-assembled the small parts into it i noticed that back where a normal bolt is flat across the bottom back, and so hits or trips the disconnector bar tip when the bolt comes all the way back, that the Magnum bolt was cut out in that area. so it wouldn't touch the disconnector bar tip. darn. almost like the Rem engineers knew that i existed and would try this. hmmm...... more work. not to be discouraged i got out some small engravers chisels to roughen up and gouge up that cutout in the bolt. broke the tip off of 3 of them (tungsten is just super hard to mill, cut, etc.) doing it but finally got the cutout roughened up and slight gouges in it. then i mixed up some brownell's accraglass gel and mixed in two scoops of powdered stainless steel. i filled in the cutout in the bolt and smoothed it to match the back / bottom contour of the rest of the bolt. the gouges and undercuts in that cutout would enable the epoxy to get in underneath and maintain a mechanical lock on the epoxy plug when it cured. warmed it overnight to help speed the epoxy cure. then shaped the cured epoxy so that the back / bottom of the mag bolt looked just like the standard 22RF bolt.

i didn't realize this "experiment" would be so darn much work. LOL.

when it was cured i decided to paint the bolt black like the standard one was. and that covered up the appearance of the epoxy plug pretty well. so just looking you couldn't tell it wasn't the original bolt.

before i put the bolt back in and swapped out the trigger group, i also accruglassed the action into the stock. more work. clean out everything. fill in gaps and crevices with clay, paint the receiver with mould release, etc. more time.

then mix up the epoxy, bed the action, let cure etc.

finally got the action out of the stock after the epoxy cured and cleaned the mould release and clay off of the action etc.

then i could start re-assembling everything.

first i reassembled the bolt. guess what. the extractor plunger spring hole isn't drilled nearly as deep on the tungsten bolt as on the standard bolt. based upon what huge effort it took me to take off so little metal, i think i know why they didn't drill the hole as deep. so... the standard extractor plunger spring wouldn't work because it was too long. another search and no love. no source i could find had a mag bolt extractor plunger spring.

so now the trial and error - snip a few coils off of the standard bolt extractor plunger spring and trial fit, disassemble, repeat until the extractor assembly would fit and pivot fully. what a pain. another hour or so. then finish by putting all the rest of the parts into the bolt. fortunately the rest fit. by now i probably had a full day or two of work just into the bolt. and a week or so of letting the epoxy cure etc.

ok, now finally the bolt could be re-assembled into the receiver. done.

next i turned to the trigger group and replaced the hammer/hammer spring/bushings with the M-Carbo set. pretty straight forward after what i went through with getting a mag bolt to fit and work.

then re-assemble the whole rifle.

off to the range. that's where, the first time, i discovered that the tip of the firing pin extended to far, as i mentioned, and i had to disassemble the whole rifle it seemed to get the firing pin out and stone it down a bit. got out the dial caliper. measure. stone. measure. stone. keep the tip rounded. measure. stone.... ok. now let's try it. check the chamber first to see if any metal was displaced into the chamber. nope. still round. ok. reassemble.

next trip to the range. bring lots of every kind of ammo that i had on hand.

my hope was that the subsonic stuff would still cycle the bolt and i'd have a fairly quite setup.

to cut to the skinny. all high velocity stuff generates enough recoil energy to cycle the action. subsonic ammo will cycle the action enough to eject and strip off a round from the magazine and chamber it. but the bolt doesn't come back far enough to trip the disconnector bar tip and re-set the trigger. aarrgh... so i learned some stuff from the "experiment".

as it is now, with subsonic ammo, the bolt doesn't come back far enough to trip the disconnector. with any hv ammo it works fine.

did i achieve the goal i had hoped this experiment would result in. partially. the action does stay quite a bit cleaner. and there is less noise out of the action area comparing the two bolts. down side like i mentioned is that only super sonic ammo will cycle the bolt back far enough to trip the trigger disconnector, so it's not as quiet as i hoped it would be, in a semi auto mode. as a single shot. not an issue. the bolt even comes back far enough to lock back on the last shot with subsonic ammo. just not far back enough to trip the disconnector.

the trigger breaks (average of 5 pulls on the lyman digital trigger pull gauge) at 2lbs 8 oz. nice.

where to go from here?

several options. option one. put the standard bolt back in.

option two. only shoot hv ammo through it.

option 3, which i haven't had time to do yet is to disassemble the rifle again, remove the bolt. remove the paint off of the bolt over the epoxy plug. roughen up the back area of the epoxy plug, mix up some more SS bearing epoxy and build the back of the bolt up with a little epoxy bump that would stick back just far enough to trip the disconnector with subsonic ammo.

more trial and error.

i suspect i'll pursue option 3. just getting a little tired of all the trial and error.

how much to build it up to trip the disconnector with subsonic ammo without building the bump up too much to where the disconnector lever is damaged by being pushed too far with HV ammo.

as far as accuracy goes, since the only ammo that would function the rifle was the hv plinking ammo, which is not noted for olympic class accuracy, the rifle groups about dime size groups at 25 yards. ok but not outstanding.

after i finish option 3 to where it will fully function with subsonic match ammo, i'll re-test for group size.

by the way as far as magazines are concerned, the NEW remington black magazines are by far the most reliable ones i have. even the "keep shooting" magazines are not as reliable as the new black remington 10 round ones in my experience. i also tried two of the remington clear plastic 30 rounders and as far as my experience with these two, they are not reliable at all. 30 rounds don't fit. and every 5 to 6 rounds i get a jam. those two were a waste of $ for sure for me.

so to sum up, i've still got just a wee bit of further work/experimentation to get to my goal of a quiet clean semi auto 22LR. not quite there yet. probably won't get time to do that until maybe over the Christmas holiday. maybe sooner. who knows.

hope you're not all bored to death.
-tdbru
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