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  #16  
Old 03-30-2019, 11:51 AM
BobSc
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MSC used to be a good place to buy tooling, but their prices have raised substantially in the last few years.
For hobby machinists like us I use Shars tool and Discount tool supply. Shars has a presence on ebay where you can get the same prices as in their online catalog and their prices are very reasonable. I buy most of my cutting tools from them.

Bob
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  #17  
Old 03-30-2019, 06:09 PM
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Paul that's exactly the info I need. I wonder if a thread talking about this would help others? Anyway if anyone else has their favorites I would love to here. Since I am kind of a hack at this a good description like you did Paul really helps. Thanks again.

While I am thinking about it, a couple of cutters I need but don't really know where to look for them are, edit, just looked on Amazon and found some.
1" ball type cutter to mill the bottom side of aluminum stock.
Ball cutters go mill for aluminum larger than 1" to match receiver size such as model 52, 37, m12 target rifles. I need to measured my H&R M12.
These are cutters my uncle doesn't have. My machine may not end up doing a good enough job but I can do them on his mill.
Where do you like to buy your cutters that is reasonable? I know my uncle buys through McMasters a lot. Also where do you buy your Vertex brand vice?

Thanks again
I'm not sure where in the US you'd buy Vertex equipment I'm afraid (I'm in New Zealand).

Regarding ball end cutters - one thing to bear in mind is that you can cut a large radius with a small cutter if you do it in multiple steps. Large diameter cutters are expensive, take more power & machine rigidity to run, and Murphy's Law says that you'll never have quite the right cutter to hand.

Here's how you can do it. If you're standing in front of the mill we'll call left/right movement of the table as X-axis, towards and away from you as Y-axis, and depth adjustment as Z-axis. X-axis is the direction of the channel you're cutting for the action/barrel, so you need a semi-circular profile in the Y-axis plane. Let's say we'll cutting a 1" diameter channel with a 1/2" diameter ball end mill. We'll call the channel radius R and the mill radius r

The basic equation for the circle we need is Y2+Z2=R2 (these are all supposed to be 'squared' symbols, but I can't find superscript text in the forum options.) The particular equation we need is Z=SQRT((R-r)2-Y2). We know both R and r, so for every value of Y we put into the equation we'll get a corresponding depth (Z). You work the Z values out for small steps of Y between -(R-r) and +(R-r), or +/- 0.25" in the example dimensions we're using. When you're milling you do a first pass, then offset in the y-direction by the step size you are using and adjust the depth by the value the equation tells you. Smaller step size = more work, but a closer mimic of the radius you're creating.

It took me 17 passes to contour a 1.2" diameter channel using a 1/2" diameter ball-end mill (this is for an Anschutz 1710 inlet) with maximum deviation from a true 1.2" diameter circle of 4 thou. This is also how you can cut an accurate radius to accommodate the rounded ends of most bottom metal - you're just using a conventional flat-bottomed end mill in this case and working in a different plane.

Don't forget to account for backlash in the table movement when changing direction if using the table dials for reference.

One further note about carbide tooling - although it's not recommended for cutting steel using a mill/drill, it will work well cutting wood. Wood can be surprisingly abrasive if you're cutting a lot of it (think multiple stocks). For this you want to get the carbide endmills that are made for cutting aluminum, not steel - they have a sharper edge. But if you're not doing lots and lots of cutting then HSS is more economical.

Last edited by PaulNZ; 03-30-2019 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #18  
Old 04-01-2019, 12:19 AM
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I use two different mills in my shop. ONe is a Grizzly G0619 that I got back in 2011. I got a bigger mill in 2016. It is the Grizzly G0721. About 2.5X heavier then the 619 with much more X axis travel. I got it mainly because I do all my inletting in the mill and the longer X axis travel allows me to do most all the inlet and barrel channel in one set-up, keeping everything very true. Also the 721 has a larger spindle diameter as well as more travel in all the axis. I'd say figure out what you think you need and get the next larger one at least. Trust me on this.

As for tooling, I use standard uncoated 2 flute end mills for the most part. I have some 3 flute as well, for milling aluminum. And an assortment of 4 flute. I use forstner bits for heavy material removal and the end mills for finish work. For instance, the receiver inlet for the 10/22 receiver is 1.250 wide. I start off using an 1-1/8 forstner bit to remove the majority of material. Then switch to a 1/2" 2 flute end mill to finish up. Lots of tooling guy. Goes a long way to making things easier.

To that end it is wise to invest in a good 2 or three axis DRO, depending on your mill. I find that using the DRO really makes things much easier.

When you get your mill, you will be better served by a square column, then a round column. Stiffer and easier to tram and have things stay set-up properly. IN any case, have fun and enjoy figuring things out. That's the fun part.

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  #19  
Old 04-01-2019, 12:42 AM
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Once again guys thank you for all the advice and info. Al just in case you missed it I did buy this and if nothing else it will be a killer drill press as I needed a good one in my/father-in-laws shop but it will also work for my trigger work and some other basic stuff. I still have my uncle's machines and tooling to do in-depth stuff. I have another pretty big project going on and it will be nice to have this at the same location to sometimes throw a stock on and do a little more Inletting. My uncle already pointed out as well that if I decide to upgrade some time I will make a considerable amount on it maybe selling to a farmer or somebody trying to get a shop up and running.

Azguy have you ever used CopyCarvers bur type ball bits for stock work?

Thanks again
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  #20  
Old 04-01-2019, 03:38 AM
LuckyGuy
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Post Dang

That is not a milling machine. It is a Drill Press. It just has a X and Y table for drilling holes in a straight inline.
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2019, 04:42 AM
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That is not a milling machine. It is a Drill Press. It just has a X and Y table for drilling holes in a straight inline.
Rubbish. It is a mill/drill (even noted as milling and drilling machine on the label in the photo). Different from a drill press in the bearing arrangement, different in that it has provision to fit a threaded drawbar so that a taper won't unseat during the side loads seen during milling. To be fair I haven't seen under the hood of the OP's mill, but I'd bet a brick of .22 I'm right.

A relatively lightweight mill, but a mill nonetheless.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:26 AM
Rick H.
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If I have a pig and I put a tag on it that says "HORSE" does that really make it a horse? You can spit fine hairs all day long, but this machine is not in the true sense a milling machine. Oh certainly it may function in that capacity for light and I mean light duty work, but what tolerances will it hold while acting as a milling machine. round column so called Mill/Drills are a deception at best. The only way to tram this machine is to split the column and try to shim it. Not the most ideal way to do this, but yes it can be done. There is nothing more aggravating then trying to mill a piece of metal work while using a machine that won't hold the tolerance you want or are looking for, so now you begin to look for an acceptable range. Can this machine hold a tolerance of .001? Can it hold .005"? Who knows!

It may suit the OP fine for what he is looking for, but you won't find many round column mill/drills like this in better machine shops. Inaccuracy leads to frustration and frustration can lead to other things. At a minimum this so called mill/drill should be stripped completely and gone through checking for wear and cleaning everything. No one can argue the fact it hasn't been taken care of in the past just from the picture. I wonder when the ways saw any lubrication? It may turn out this is a diamond in the rough, but it should be overhauled and then see where it is. A good starting point is needed after refurbishing it and then see what happens.


Rick H.
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  #23  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:45 AM
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Before this turns into a big battle on what it takes to be a true milling machine, this one is exactly what I was looking for and have represented it from since the beginning. I stated I was looking for a heavy duty drill press and found this mill/drill which can do all my intended needs but may also allow me to do a few more things because of the draw bar with collets and the x and y table. I have a much better mill I can do precision work on so this doesn't have to do any more than what I intended it for. If I ask about some equipment such as certain cutters It is probably for use on that better mill because as I stated my uncle may not have those for certain things I want to do.

Let's not turn this into an argument on what you feel qualifies for your use. This happened in the CZ forum recently and ruined the intended purpose of a great thread. I don't think this is to that point yet but I feel it happening. Your concerns with using this as a serious mill doing precision work has already been discussed.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:04 AM
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On another note Rick, I am having trouble finding a manual on this machine as I would like to do as you have said and pull it apart and clean and lube everything. I think this was suggested by another member and I believe you guys are correct. I will start with the table and move on from there.

I think this unit looks so filthy as it was in a weld and fabrication shop and has been exposed to a lot of the dust and smoke associated with that. I wonder how much that effects the different components as I'm sure it does some. The good thing is it has not been beat on and abused in that fashion so I think it's worth putting the time in. If nothing else it will be a good learning experience.
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  #25  
Old 04-01-2019, 12:38 PM
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It looks like a twin to the Jet milling/drilling machine I bought back in the seventies. Mine is still going strong. I bought it mainly for it's drilling capabilities but it will also do fairly precise small milling projects. It's slow and and not really very user friendly in the milling department but it's possible to do some nice work with it.

It's a great machine for stock making in my opinion. I use all kinds of bits, end mills and router bits. Mine came with a 3 1/2" carbide face mill which is great for truing up blanks.

Clean it up. oil and grease it, and have fun with it. Don't worry about it's shortcomings as a mill. Many of them can be overcome with a little patience and ingenuity and where else would you be able to buy this for $200?
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  #26  
Old 04-01-2019, 03:50 PM
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On another note Rick, I am having trouble finding a manual on this machine as I would like to do as you have said and pull it apart and clean and lube everything.
Check out this link to the manual:

http://industrialmanuals.com/duracraft-m-817.php
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  #27  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:15 PM
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Thank you Bob, I will order one.

I did clean the table and have it working pretty slick now, it has just a little bit of lash so will have to read on how to adjust that out.

Arrowhead, what's a carbide face mill? Remember I am not a trained machinist, I'm a hack. Lol
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  #28  
Old 04-01-2019, 06:44 PM
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....I am not a trained machinist, I'm a hack. Lol
If this continues on a normal course you’ll end up with a dedicated mill. It may not be a Bridgeport knee mill, but you’ll keep your eyes open til you find a substantial machine, if for no other reason than they’re just so darn handy.
I’ve had one for 10 years or so. I’m not a machinist either, nor do I care if “real” machinists are impressed with my knowledge/skill or not. Among other things I do care if I can relieve one piece scope bases to facilitate ejection on any number of my rifles. I do care if I can use a mill to adapt a scope base with bottom radius, moa inclination, and length to my silhouette and mid-range rifles. And mostly I do care if my mill can use tooling to give me results I want. I hope your purchase suits your needs.
For what it’s worth, tilting the head on a suitable/capable machine will allow you to use standard two and four flute mills to cut radii. There are internet sources that will describe the math necessary to determine what degree of tilt is required for a specific radius. One of these days I may use the cut and try method to make a 20 moa base with a radius for my Anschutz and Remington 40-X rifles. Or maybe not.
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  #29  
Old 04-30-2019, 04:36 PM
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I have one of these that my Dad bought from a Cessna toolmaker back in the 70's. Dad used it mostly to rough out the inletting on gunstocks but he made jigs to allow him to do lots of gunsmithing. He made Jantz style side-swing safeties for 98 mausers and 03 Springfields. He even made octagon barrels with his. Lots and lots of light cuts before he could index to the next flat. But it worked and like he said, he had more time than money. I work in a modern machine shop and never use mine but I won't part with it because of the sentimentality of it. The jigs and tooling that he built mean more to me than all the gun stuff I got from him.
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  #30  
Old 04-30-2019, 06:07 PM
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Exclamation Carbide Endmills good for cutting steel...

As a Machinist with about 12-13 years o experience doing work for the Aerospace industry as well as Department of Defense work as a mainstay, I recommend using a Varimill if you're going to be hogging through steel...And they ain't cheap...Just my $0.02 about that...Those boogers are BEAST. YEE-HAW!
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