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Shorts through a LR Chamber

3K views 27 replies 14 participants last post by  Tam 3 
#1 ·
ok, yet another question; my thought has always been that it is not advisable to shoot a short through a gun chambered for LR or just L, or for that matter a L through one chambered for LR, due to throat erosion. It seems intuitive to me, but would like some general thoughts. This is a question, in general, but also a little more relevant to me as I have a nice Lightning on the way (has been hung up with USPS for over two weeks now) and it is chambered for the L but also accepts shorts. Just some general thoughts if anyone cares to share...
 
#2 ·
Just brain flatulence here Citation.

.22 rimfire does not burn hot enough/long enough to cause throat erosion.

The worst case scenario in shooting .22 short in a long or long rifle chamber is building up a carbon ring which is easily removed by an over size bore brush.

Shoot away, have fun :)

Frank
 
#3 ·
As stated, do not worry about throat erosion. Fouling/carbon buildup over time, yes.

Two other things to consider... Shooting a short in a long rifle chamber can be done, but don't expect best accuracy. The smaller bullet with shorter case has to jump a distance before engaging rifling which is detrimental to accuracy. Also, guns chambered for long rifle have a faster twist rate to the rifling than shorts. There is a reason for having different twist rates for shorts and long rifle, and it has to do with optimal spin rate imparted to the bullet for it's length/weight in order to achieve best stability and accuracy.

In the for what it's worth department....:D
 
#4 · (Edited)
thanks so much, Lt and Pump. Always appreciate your posts. What you're saying certainly makes sense. It certainly should not be an issue for me anyway, as I do not intend to shoot the Lightning very much. It has an "unbroken" forearm and I want to keep it that way...just want to fire 10 or so through it, then clean the bore really well and put it away.

The only gun through which I shoot shorts is my winder. I have quite a bit of SV and HV short ammo but saving the SV in case I can find a nice High Standard Olympic.
 
#5 ·
Where is the fun in just putting it up? As a kid I shot a lot of shorts in my dad's Remington mod. 12 as they were cheap and I had to pay for my own ammo most of the time. Shorts are a very effective small varmint killer out to 30-35 yards. I still have that rifle, it still shoots great, and according to the serial number was made in 1921. It has also seen a lot of long and long rifle powered bullets leave it's muzzle over the years. I still get it out and shoot it now and then but I use standard velocity long rifle ammo. It's one hundred years old now so I go easy on the old feller.
 
#15 ·
Pump .22s, I believe the twist rate for a "universal" (S,L,LR) Winchester made barrel is the standard 1-16 used for LR only barrels. If I'm not mistaken, the physically lighter and shorter bullets loaded in .22 Short is designed to shoot best in 1-20 twist rate. Winchester technical historians, please correct me if wrong. I will bow to your knowledge of the exact twist rates used.:t
I think the twist rate for rifles capable of shooting all three cartridges varies by manufacturer. For some, perhaps most, they stuck with the 1-16" twist rate. Some went with a "compromise" of 1-17". When Winchester started manufacturing the 1906 in a version capable of handling all three cartridges, They of course changed the lifter and then put a 1-17" twist in the barrel.

A good bit of research by manufacturer should clarify things, but one thing is pretty certain; 1-16" works for the long rifle and 1-20" works for the short cartridge. On page 96 of Ned Schwing's book on Winchester slide action rifles, he discusses a 1919 discussion between Winchester executives of the possibility of the government using the 1890 as training rifle. At that time, the 1890 was only offered in short and long calibers, but the government was interested in how the long rifle would perform in those barrels with a 1-20" twist. They did some extensive testing with some rechambered guns and came to the conclusion that the 1-20" rate produced substandard accuracy and was therefore unacceptable.

For what it's worth....:D
 
#10 · (Edited)
. . . my thought has always been that it is not advisable to shoot a short through a gun chambered for LR or just L, or for that matter a L through one chambered for LR, due to throat erosion.
In the '50s, folk wisdom was to avoid shorts in a LR chamber, but to avoid an eroded ring in the chamber from corrosive priming and even some cartridges used a mixture of smokeless and black powder. A lot of old stuff was shot up during the WWII ammo famine, so not much of that stuff around.

The carbon ring is a real possibility, but it may require more .22 short ammo than you can find.
 
#11 ·
In the '50s, folk wisdom was to avoid shorts in a LR chamber, but to avoid an eroded ring in the chamber from corrosive priming and even some cartridges used a mixture of smokeless and black powder. The carbon ring is a real possibility, but it may require more .22 short ammo than you can find.
Yeah, I'm probably thinking back to some vestiges of the folk wisdom. I know as a kid that was the thinking
 
#12 ·
Folk wisdom is exactly what it was I believe. The late forties and early fifties was when I was doing my short and long shooting. I received my very own 22 rifle for Christmas in 1948 and shot a lot of shorts and longs in it also. Both rifles still have excellent bores and I have seen no accuracy loss in either. By the middle of the fifties I had started earning enough wages to shoot only LR ammo in either gun.
 
#14 ·
Yes sir. I still have the 9422 my dad bought me new when I was 10...had a million shells through it...much of it short and Long. Condition is worn down to 50% or less but bore is excellent.

In any event, I won't shoot this Lightning enough to make any difference one way or the other but did want to pose the question.

News flash; The Lightning was delivered yesterday to my FFL so I'll pick it up this morning. It was shipped from NY on December 28.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Pump .22s, I believe the twist rate for a "universal" (S,L,LR) Winchester made barrel is the standard 1-16 used for LR only barrels. If I'm not mistaken, the physically lighter and shorter bullets loaded in .22 Short is designed to shoot best in 1-20 twist rate. Winchester technical historians, please correct me if wrong. I will bow to your knowledge of the exact twist rates used.:t
 
#16 ·
From that it appears the twist rate is the main factor in accuracy. It was mentioned that the 22 short bullet has to travel a little ways before it engages the rifling but after giving that some thought I have my doubts it has much affect if any, if it did it would seem all revolvers would be inherently inaccurate since the bullets on all have to not only clear the unrifled cylinder but jump a small gap into a short taper in the barrel before they contact the rifling.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Rate of twist is a factor. The East Germans built the Suhl 150 to compete with Anschutz in competition. The early guns use the 1-16" twist and were very competitive. Later guns were changed to slower twist rate and some of the those guns did not seem to shoot as well. On the other hand the degree to which accuracy is affected where the bullet has to jump a short distance before engaging the rifling is, for most practical purposes, relatively small depending on the distance traveled before engaging the lands and the accuracy requirement of the shooter. In the case of a typical revolver with it's relatively short accuracy range, the effect on usable accuracy is relatively negligible. With a rifle where greater accuracy is expected a greater distances, it is more significant. In the world of bench rest accuracy it is generally a no-no, as even tiny amounts of degradation in accuracy caused by bullet jump is important. Many centerfire reloaders like to have the bullet ogive touching the lands when the cartridge is seated. In my reloading days, I found that gave me my best accuracy.

For the average squirrel hunter, shooting shorts vs. long rifle in his S,L,LR gun is not likely to be that noticeable. The quality of the ammo and the shooters off hand accuracy skill is more likely to be more important. I once ran a test where I shot equal quality shorts and long rifle ammo (CCI) off the bench in about 20 different guns chambered for long rifle ammo or S,L,LR to see if there was any significant difference in accuracy. There was with the long rifle ammo almost always outperforming the short ammo - sometimes significantly. The question was which had the greater affect on accuracy; rate of twist or the short jump of the shorter "short" bullet before engaging the rifling.
 
#17 ·
The .22 is a heeled bullet ...

The .22 is a heeled bullet. The outside of the case being the same as the outside of the bullet forward of the reduced diameter heel. Many rifles are chambered to shoot shorts, longs and long rifle cartridges. Those chambered for the short only, as stated earlier here, have different rate of twist. Lead, once swaged down, does not bounce back to it's earlier diameter. Soft lead, especially hollow based bullets, will "bump up" due to the expanding pressure driving them. This is important in revolver accuracy. The hollow base wad cutter combines the expanding base with a long bearing surface. And the majority of weight is forward. All else being equal, these bullets should give you the best possible accuracy. Given the earlier discussion of the terms accuracy and precision, I use accuracy to mean the results on target. One other thought, where the .22 is a heeled bullet and the pressures maybe insufficient for the bullet to "bump up", it would seem that expanding gases would work past the base and then go no further than the driving diameter of the bullet. If that is not even all the way around, it would be like a bullet with an irregular base. Just thinking here.
 
#19 ·
The topic of .22 short accuracy with various twists and chambers has been discussed here many times. I am a huge .22 Short fan and did considerable experimentation with every type of .22 short ammunition I could find, including RWS and Eley Match .22 shorts in two barrels: a 1:16" twist Lilja, and a 1:20" twist VQ barrel.

Long story short (no pun), the .22 short ammunition, even the match ammunition, could not even come close to mid-range .22 LR accuracy. The 1:20" VQ barrel, even with its shorts-only chamber, would never produce accuracy comparable to mid-range .22 LR ammunition in a reasonably accurate rifle. The 1:16" Lilja (installed on a 52C sporter) with a shorts-specific chamber, produced identical groups to the VQ barrel, and the same .22 short ammunition, even after I re-reamed the 52C chamber to a .22 LR match chamber, continued to produce identical mediocre groups...no worse in the longer chamber. In contrast, the 52C Lilja barrel, after being reamed to a match .22 LR chamber, is probably my most accurate .22 rifle.

Interestingly, all the same ammunition in a shorts-only Browning 22 SA produces similar ho-hum accuracy. My conclusion: the .22 short ammunition is the limiting factor and is just not accurate enough for the chamber or twist rate to matter.

And, to the OP's question, just clean the chamber occasionally, and you will have no problems.

TBR
 
#20 ·
Teddy Bear Rat, when did you do the testing ?

Teddy Bear Rat, when did you do your testing ? Reason I ask is that the .22 short for International rapid fire was ended in 2004 and they went to long rifle. At that point, the ammo makers may have let QC slip and more hi-speed ammo was made as opposed to the standard velocity. I still have boxes of .22 short marked "Target" and I understand that may be just sales puffery. But it also could be some of the old .22 short ammo is pretty accurate.
 
#21 ·
The more common US-made HV and Target shorts were from about 2012, the time of the testing, but the Eley and RWS were from lots left over from when the International Rapid Fire went to the .22 LR. I had high hopes for the RWS and Eley, but the lowly CCI .22 Short Target shot as well, which is to say, not that well.

TBR
 
#22 ·
My brother is an avid squirrel hunter and keeps dogs for that purpose. He was also a big believer in using shorts. I finally got him to try some CCI SV long rifle....now that's all he shoots.

TBR, I think you nailed it, the short ammo is not of the quality to produce consistent accuracy.

James
 
#23 ·
The long and short of it....😁...

I always love to read about those of us that have looked back once AGAIN at the interesting 22 SHORT and think about trying something else to experiment with using it.
I have at present 3 Win 56's in SHORT and have posted 'this and that' about them here in the past. It's always a self requirement that I 'fuss' about how some beautiful old SHORT chambers have been assaulted by someone with a Long Rifle reamer, however I realized that I have an opportunity to EXPERIMENT with a mint bore 56 22 SHORT rifle that has been reamed - I might have a good rifle as a test bed! I have a small assortment of 22 LONG ammo and a rifle that is close to a LONG chamber to test shoot them in. I don't know the specs for a LONG chamber vs a LONG RIFLE chamber but it has to be pretty close to a LONG chamber, and the 20" twist should (?) give interesting results with the LONG's 29 grain bullet. I even found some 'never seen before' ammo that needs to be tried in it: '22 LONG CB MATCH'. (Yes, "MATCH"!).
-and another test I should have tried long ago: regular Long Rifle ammo in various bullet weights, in the slow 20" twist barrel that it's "not supposed to be accurate in".
40 grain bullets should not stabilize,... but I've not TRIED IT! And what about Stinger LR ammo with it's high velocity light HP bullet??
So maybe instead of yammering about how someone "ruined a perfect 22 SHORT chamber I now have a rifle and several types of ammo that I really want to take to the range!
This model 56 with the reamed to LR chamber happens to have the Lyman Peep so it will be interesting to shoot probably no more than 25-50 yards but that's ok, should reveal something interesting anyway.
 
#24 ·
saami specs for .22 short, .22 lon & .22 long rifle.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload....1-Rimfire-2015-R2018-Approved-2018-06-13.pdf

saami website and specs, link above.

Case diameter on all is .226"
Bullet diameter short and long is .225"
Bullet diameter on long rifle is .2255"

Except in match chambers with match ammo, I don't see any of this mattering too much. I bought a case or two of CCI Target Shorts years back. The .22 Short was used for the Olympic 25 meter rapid fire pistol event until 2004. Then there was less demand for quality .22 short ammo.
 
#25 ·
Shooting shorts in a long chamber should not be an issue as the short and long bullet are basically the same and generally were shot in 1-20 twist barrels.

On pages 96-99, Ned Schwing in his excellent "Winchester Slide-Action Rifles" discusses a test of short chambered rifles with 1-20 twist rechambered to shoot long rifle. The results were disappointing with increased velocity seeming to aggravate the issue. Personally, I suspect that the 1-20 twist rate is marginal for the longer and heavier long rifle bullet and that results will depend on the individual gun and specific velocity of cartridges used with less velocity giving less issues. Repeating a story I have already told, I purchased a very nice Model Model 61 Winchester for my brother that was marked short only. We knew that the gun had been rechambered to long rifle but decided that due to the low price it was worth taking a chance on. When I received the gun, I tested CCI SV ammo in it, and it performed very well. I did not test high velocity ammo in it, as my brother uses the CCI SV for squirrel hunting.

On another note, my brother also owns a Remington 552 in gallery special marked short only. But my brother found out that it would cycle and shoot shorts and long rifle just fine....leading me to suspect that the gun was actually chambered and rifled for long rifle ammo from the factory and that the gallery gun/short only markings were a bit of salesmanship on Remington's behalf. On the other hand, the Remington 550 gallery gun is a true shorts only gun.

In the for what it's worth department.....:D
 
#26 ·
It is easy enough to determine twist ...

It is easy enough to determine twist. That being said, there has been a lot written on how the Aguila SSS 60 gr. subsonic bullet behaves in different barrels. Some have had no problems and others have. I expect the same differing experiences with the .22 long rifle in a .22 short barrel, but not to the same extent.
 
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