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  #46  
Old 06-16-2016, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass37 View Post
WSM case is much bigger and is pressure rated much higher. Why would it not be much faster? A better 22mag is one with flatter trajectory, right. So, why would they not make it as fast as possible?
Same reason the B.Mag barrel leans left and the Ruger needs a bolt shim and new trigger?
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  #47  
Old 06-16-2016, 10:04 AM
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Guys

You have to remember that when a case/action is designed for 33000PSI MAP (17 WSM),
when you go up is caliber size, you have to work WITH the PSI values of that case.

This is the reason that in 20/22 caliber, you can ONLY push the bullet at the MAP = maximum AVERAGE pressure of that case.

To drive a larger caliber/bullet weight, you must have HIGHER PSI values,
the limiting factor is the case/weapon design,
there is no free lunch!!!!!!!!!

Tia,
Don
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  #48  
Old 06-16-2016, 11:40 AM
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Glass37, I don't dispute what you say; it seems to make sense, but the 25 grain 17 WSM is only being loaded to 2600 fps. - maybe they could get more out of the 25 grain and just decided people would want a milder load; I don't know. The hottest 22 mag round I believe is a 30 gr. at 2250 or 2300 fps. So if they are maxing out the 25 gr. .17, I don't see how a 22 WSM is going to improve significantly on the 22 mag. There may be ballistic advantages to the .22 being closer to the diameter of the case, as in larger surface area to push on; maybe someone smarter than me will comment on this. I would certainly spend some money on a .20 WSM with a 30 or 33 gr. bullet at 2700 fps. !! Best regards,
Steve

Last edited by mmpsteve; 06-16-2016 at 11:43 AM.
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  #49  
Old 06-16-2016, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagerman View Post
Design a new gun that takes more to make than any other rimfire. Plus blue it and have walnut for 500 I think your unrealistic.

To answer the original post .. I don't consider the 17wsm a hit so I doubt there is a 22 coming.
Jagerman...sir I can understand your view about it cost money to design new rifles but on GB right now there are over 2600 rifles that fall between $400 and $500 that come in all kind of calibers a lot bigger than a 17 super mag caliber...and if all those rifles can be sold for in that price range than I don't see why some one can make a rifle that fill my needs. If I remember correctly the Bmag came out about below $400 and to polish the barrel might have cost another 20 dollars and a wooden stock which they already had might be another $50 dollars...still under $500. Designing a new bolt action was not necessary Savage makes lots of different rifles with larger calibers than the 17super mag they could have used something they already had. Ruger has a rifle in 17 Super mag now and why did they use something they already had that was not out of the ordinary like savage....there are calibers like 204 Ruger that have high velocity and high pressure rounds. This is just my opinion and I am glad Savage finally came out with there new Super mag rifles with a real barrel and nice laminated stock and they are around $500 street price...MSRP is $548 on their web site just wish they were polished like there Savage Classic rifles...used to be...it is just more profit for the company with the new matte finish=less work...same price. ??

Anyway I am just a gun nut and I will keep my money in my pocket until some one comes out with what I want...I have plenty of other rifles and calibers that fill my needs. I am not loosing sleep over the 17WSM caliber...but a ugly rifle is not in my collection and will never be.

I would like to see a 22 super mag round...if not so what.

Signalman
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  #50  
Old 06-16-2016, 01:50 PM
nvreloader
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Guys,
FWIW, here is some info on the 3 WSM cases,
loaded to the MAP 33,000 Psi values,
Some thing to drool over.

17 WSM, 24" bbl length,
15 gr bullet = 3712 fps @ 32905 psi
17 gr bullet = 3532 fps @ 32880 psi
20 gr bullet = 3274 fps @ 32899 psi
25 gr bullet = 2935 fps @ 32965 psi

20 WSM (same bbl length)
24 gr bullet = 3086 fps @ 32900 psi
30 gr bullet = 2840 fps @ 32963 psi

22 WSM (same bbl length)
30 gr bullet = 2849 fps @ 32927 psi
35 gr bullet = 2641 fps @ 32987 psi

Tia,
Don
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  #51  
Old 06-16-2016, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvreloader View Post
Guys,
FWIW, here is some info on the 3 WSM cases,
loaded to the MAP 33,000 Psi values,
Some thing to drool over.

17 WSM, 24" bbl length,
15 gr bullet = 3712 fps @ 32905 psi
17 gr bullet = 3532 fps @ 32880 psi
20 gr bullet = 3274 fps @ 32899 psi
25 gr bullet = 2935 fps @ 32965 psi

20 WSM (same bbl length)
24 gr bullet = 3086 fps @ 32900 psi
30 gr bullet = 2840 fps @ 32963 psi

22 WSM (same bbl length)
30 gr bullet = 2849 fps @ 32927 psi
35 gr bullet = 2641 fps @ 32987 psi

Tia,
Don
Don,

Thanks for the chart! Maybe adjust the max pressure of the two known 20/25gr loads to what they are actually running at and see how that scale the rest of the data into something we could actually see.
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  #52  
Old 06-16-2016, 03:20 PM
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mmpsteve, no problem we all are pretty much just tossing ideas around.
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  #53  
Old 06-16-2016, 08:06 PM
nvreloader
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Steve
here you go,

QL shows an average working PSI values of 28,872 psi, for the 17 WSM case,

17 WSM, 24" bbl length,
15 gr bullet = 3553 fps @ 28718 psi
17 gr bullet = 3388 fps @ 28870 psi
20 gr bullet = 3141 fps @ 28837 psi
25 gr bullet = 2827 fps @ 28732 psi

20 WSM (same bbl length)
24 gr bullet = 2795 fps @ 28863 psi
30 gr bullet = 2488 fps @ 28764 psi

22 WSM (same bbl length)
30 gr bullet = 2533 fps @ 28877 psi
35 gr bullet = 2514 fps @ 28788 psi

Tia,
Don
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  #54  
Old 06-16-2016, 09:32 PM
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Thanks Don, close!!! What I mean is, keep dropping the pressure until the 20/25 shows the 3000/2600 velocity, and then work with that number for all the weights and calibres.
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  #55  
Old 06-16-2016, 11:27 PM
nvreloader
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Steve

You have to remember that we (handloaders),
do not have access to the OEM powders that this ammo is loaded with.

The best 2 powders that seem to work OK are,
Lil-gun for light weight bullets,
and Alliant Power Pistol for the heavier weights.

When using QL, (if you don't know already),
enter the load amount ie, 5.6 grs, then start adding 1 thru 9 (hundreds of a gr,)
ie 5.65 and you can get really close to the pressure you want to check.

QL is quite a program after you understand it, and when using it for rifle loads,
you can get the bbl time of your load and tune it for your handloads,
using Chris longs OBT for bbl lengths.

http://www.the-long-family.com/optim...rel%20time.htm,
http://www.the-long-family.com/internal_ballistics.htm
be sure to read everything.

I just found and tested RL-26 in a 284 Win load w/140gr Nosler Parts,
went from 3''+ at 300 yds to right around 1" for my SP pistol.

I was using RL-17 and 3" was the best it would do.
Testing RL-23 now, shows promise.

Tia,
Don

Last edited by nvreloader; 06-16-2016 at 11:30 PM. Reason: add more info
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  #56  
Old 06-17-2016, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Signalman1 View Post
Jagerman...sir I can understand your view about it cost money to design new rifles but on GB right now there are over 2600 rifles that fall between $400 and $500 that come in all kind of calibers a lot bigger than a 17 super mag caliber...and if all those rifles can be sold for in that price range than I don't see why some one can make a rifle that fill my needs. If I remember correctly the Bmag came out about below $400 and to polish the barrel might have cost another 20 dollars and a wooden stock which they already had might be another $50 dollars...still under $500. Designing a new bolt action was not necessary Savage makes lots of different rifles with larger calibers than the 17super mag they could have used something they already had. Ruger has a rifle in 17 Super mag now and why did they use something they already had that was not out of the ordinary like savage....there are calibers like 204 Ruger that have high velocity and high pressure rounds. This is just my opinion and I am glad Savage finally came out with there new Super mag rifles with a real barrel and nice laminated stock and they are around $500 street price...MSRP is $548 on their web site just wish they were polished like there Savage Classic rifles...used to be...it is just more profit for the company with the new matte finish=less work...same price. ??

Anyway I am just a gun nut and I will keep my money in my pocket until some one comes out with what I want...I have plenty of other rifles and calibers that fill my needs. I am not loosing sleep over the 17WSM caliber...but a ugly rifle is not in my collection and will never be.

I would like to see a 22 super mag round...if not so what.

Signalman
I have to agree with sman. I am not loosing sleep over this round, no matter how much i like the idea of a fast flat rimfire. I will not waste money on something that does not work or meet my needs. I will not support a company that sells an idea (albeit a good one) without taking the time to perfect its idea or validate its products.
For me, the sad part is that most on here are being ripped off by companies with money, looking to make more money...and dont seem to realize this.
I would love a fast flat rimfire rifle that meets and surpasses my cost and accuracy needs.
Until then, im holding on to my very hard earned money.
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  #57  
Old 06-17-2016, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragged Hole View Post
For me, the sad part is that most on here are being ripped off by companies with money, looking to make more money...and dont seem to realize this.
Its called capitalism and thats how it works.
I would love a fast flat rimfire rifle that meets and surpasses my cost and accuracy needs.
Until then, im holding on to my very hard earned money.
I'm too old to wait for perfection. If I did I'd still be single, walking, grubbing out life with an organic garden, burning wood for heat, ETC, YMMV JMO
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  #58  
Old 06-17-2016, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
I'm too old to wait for perfection. If I did I'd still be single, walking, grubbing out life with an organic garden, burning wood for heat, ETC, YMMV JMO
Oh I play the game just like you, better than you because I dont waste money doing it...I also know I have to play the game, because its the only game in town. You see its called an oligarchy and thats how it works.
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  #59  
Old 06-28-2016, 11:06 AM
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I would love to see a 20WSM, and I would love to see .17 WSM, with CIP a Standard..

The European gun and ammo makers are not going to do much, with the .17WSM, until there is a CIP standard, for the caliber.
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  #60  
Old 09-09-2016, 09:31 PM
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With all the rimfire hype just before it was released at the shot show. I was disappointed to find it was 17! I wanted a 22 WSM. 40 grain doing 2400 to 2500 fps and the 30 / 34 grain winchester supreme HP 2800. Much better knock down for larger game, sub old time Hornet power. Im tired of seeing these feather light bullets with total lack of penetration.
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