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Old 09-20-2020, 10:47 AM
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Dcarey51
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Ammo Question



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I just got a bunch of (normally priced!) Norma TAC-22 ammo (1100 fps./110ft. lbs Muzzle energy) listed as "Standard Velocity". I have never used any ammo listed higher than 1080 fps./106 ft lbs. muzzle energy in my High Standard pistols. Most ammo that I use is advertised as being at 1070 fps. /104 ft lbs. muzzle energy.

Am I tempting fate if I use this Norma ammo in my High Standards? (Duramatic, 102, 106, & 107). None of it will go to waste, however, I have plenty of other .22's to shoot it in!

Thanks,
Dan
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:19 PM
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I have shot 4 bricks of Norma TAC-22 in my HS 107 and Nelson Conversion. So far there is no issue. I think that the ammo is made by RWS. I can tell from its headstamp. Though they are not match quality ammo, they are good enough for practice. I want to stock up more but cannot find brick sale. PM me if you could share the information for purchase.
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:15 PM
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LGS had two bricks at normal prices and I bought both...wish I could have gotten more!
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2020, 11:14 PM
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Lightbulb

In case anyone is interested the CMP is still selling the Eley bulk pack in cases of 5,000. I just bought a case and it is due to arrive this Wednesday. I don’t know yet how it is going to shoot in my HS’s but I will be happy to report back when I find out. Assuming anyone is interested. I have received reports from a few friends that tell me it shoots as well if not a tad better than CCI SV in their guns but none of them have HS pistols.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:59 AM
LDBennett
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Why shoot Std Vel ammo in a High Standard target pistol?
To avoid cracking the frame…eventually.

The crack would be a fatigue fracture. That is, each excursion of the metal into a high stress excursion fractures the micro crystalline structure of the steel a little bit. With continued such excursions, the internal micro crack gets bigger. If you minimize the stress level (with Std Vel ammo and regular recoil spring changes) the progress of the micro cracking is minimized. That is, the damage is cumulative.

Why is there any stress at all?
A recoil operated semi-auto is a balancing act of the recoil energy against the mass of the slide, the recoil spring, friction of the slide, and the energy to cock the hammer. When perfectly balanced the slide in recoil gently kisses the recoil lug in the frame. Change any one of those parts of the balanced equation and the slide either fails to fully travel or expels the excess energy into the frame and excessively stressing the steel.

Is there an exact power level ammo we should be using?
Ammo around 1080FPS with a 40 grain bullet is a place marker. It really is about the power level (energy) of the ammo. A few foot pounds of ammo energy will make little to no difference. But almost any High Velocity ammo is too powerful and steady use will hasten the path to the crack being revealed on the surface which destroys the value of the gun.

How about increasing the energy of the recoil spring to balance the equation when using High Velocity ammo?
Not a good idea in these pistols as the choice of steels seems to not resist hammering. The increase in spring force works to increase the slide closing velocity which hammers the slide on closing. These particular guns with heavy use will mushroom the breech face of the slide, particularly with a recoil spring installed to match High Velocity ammo.

Hope this helps…….LDBennett
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2020, 03:40 PM
azshot
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.22 LR ammo is the only round I know of that doesn't give the SAAMI pressure specs. All the quoting of "standard" , "High" or "Hyper" has to do with velocity, not PRESSURE. So it's kind of a guessing game what pressure a High Standard needs to reliably cycle. I doubt feet per second is a very good way. And I know narrowing what has been considered "standard velocity" to just ONE velocity is very limiting and excessive. A 30 ft/s difference isn't going to break the gun.

The velocity of standard-velocity .22 LR rounds varies between manufacturers. Some standard velocity ammo may be slightly supersonic-around 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s), other ammo such as CCI Standard Velocity .22 LR ammunition is rated at 1,070 ft/s (330 m/s). Stay away from High Velocity, 1200 ft/s.

Last edited by azshot; 09-21-2020 at 03:49 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2020, 06:39 PM
SGVictor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azshot View Post
.22 LR ammo is the only round I know of that doesn't give the SAAMI pressure specs. All the quoting of "standard" , "High" or "Hyper" has to do with velocity, not PRESSURE. So it's kind of a guessing game what pressure a High Standard needs to reliably cycle. I doubt feet per second is a very good way. And I know narrowing what has been considered "standard velocity" to just ONE velocity is very limiting and excessive. A 30 ft/s difference isn't going to break the gun.

The velocity of standard-velocity .22 LR rounds varies between manufacturers. Some standard velocity ammo may be slightly supersonic-around 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s), other ammo such as CCI Standard Velocity .22 LR ammunition is rated at 1,070 ft/s (330 m/s). Stay away from High Velocity, 1200 ft/s.
Peak pressure is not important in calculating the slide impact speed with the frame. Pressure is not constant as the bullet passes down the barrel and different powders have different pressure curves.

Actually the start of calculations is determining the momentum of the bullet so that the law of conservation of momentum can be applied. That simply requires you know the muzzle velocity and the bullet weight. For rounds that use the standard 40 grain bullet the only variable is the velocity. The Aquila sniper subsonic has a low velocity but with a 60 grain bullet the 950 fps velocity would look good in a velocity calculation but would be very bad from the perspective of momentum. On the other hand some of the hypervelocity ammunition with its higher velocity but lighter bullet might surprise you if you do the comparison.
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:35 PM
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Three SV ammos. Same velocity range from my chronograph at about 10'-12' from muzzle.

SK 930, 934 (fps)
CCI 927, 929, 932
Eley Pistol Extra 929, 931

Each entry is a 5 round average, from a Marvel 22 conversion.
SK failed to cycle almost every shot.
CCI and Eley cycled excellently.

Wolf ammo at 972, 980, 981 failed to cycle about half the time.
SK and Wolf have a reputation of weak cycling.

Draw your own conclusions
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  #9  
Old 09-22-2020, 12:45 AM
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I shot about half a case of the Norma TAC-22 through my HS Bullseye gun and will not shoot another round.
The thing that convinced my was trying some through the Hammerli 208/215 series pistols.
It simply feels too hot.
It might be fine but I’m not willing to test that further just because I happen to have some on hand.
Otherwise I found the Norma to be acceptable ammunition- reliable to a fault, consistent and clean.
The remaining I have is now relegated to other guns.
My feeling though at this point is I’m a little tired of semi autos for pistol practice.
I’m not currently shooting competition and am finding a single shot free pistol much more satisfying to practice with.
I’m interested most in slow fire at distance and the falling block free pistol just suits that approach much better- it simply is best to my current use and the complexity of a semi and its associated care is only a distraction.

Of course I’m somewhat of an outlier these days.
A trip to the range might see me use 40-50 rounds in concerted practice before I lose concentration and my groups loosen up.
I’m muttering under my breath at the folk in lanes beside me tossing hundreds of rounds of .22 towards target and I wonder at what they are trying to accomplish.
‘Each to own’ doesn’t seem to keep me from being an opinionated SOB....
So in that vein get a free pistol and leave the Hi Standards in their case.
Gone are worries about cracked frames, worn springs, hammered breech faces and fickle feed issues.
Load a single round and stand to to line and shoot.
Irons.
Offhand at 50 meters like god intended..

Last edited by trbnt; 09-22-2020 at 05:37 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-22-2020, 05:46 AM
Nicioli

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I´ve heard that the HD Military is less prone to frame cracking than other HS models.Is that true?
Anyway since I got hold of mine I´ve only used standard velocity ammo.
Thanks, regards, Nicioli
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  #11  
Old 09-22-2020, 06:20 AM
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I bought 2 cases of CMP early last year to try in my HS - 107's with LSP barrels which I use for BE. It comes in 500 rd bulk plastic bags inside boxes. I found it too "dirty" / sticky lubed for reliability in feeding and caused too many alibis. It could be sprayed with Hornady One Shot to clean it if needed.
I found Aguila Super Extra to be better functioning with good accuracy.. I'm averaging a 280. Price at $185/ case was less and I ordered (5) cases after I found it works.
I wound uo giving the rest of CMP .22's to a Junior Rifle Team to use which should be fine for BA rifles.
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Old 09-22-2020, 11:14 AM
Ontarian50

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicioli View Post
I´ve heard that the HD Military is less prone to frame cracking than other HS models.Is that true?
Anyway since I got hold of mine I´ve only used standard velocity ammo.
Thanks, regards, Nicioli
Actually, no, that's probably not the case.

The crack appears at the top of the frame at the rear of the magazine well - a section that is pretty near identical in both slant grip and military grip frames.

There may be more slant grips out there with cracked frames, but slant grips (starting with the 102 series, where the frame problems became more notorious) have a few years head start over the earliest military grip guns. (1958 vs. 1965).

Besides, anecdotally, the two guys I know who have cracked frames, both have military grip Victors (which weren't introduced until 1971). So .......?
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Old 09-22-2020, 11:42 AM
trbnt

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I have a Hammerli 208 with a cracked frame.
With these a square tooth slotting mill is used to cut the recoil spring channel and the terminal end has very little material and a perfectly sharp square corner.
It makes my machinists sensibilities cringe..
Ending the face cut on the channel just there is just silly.
Not providing a radius on the slot end criminal...
AND.. this series Hammerli recommends a pry bar to open the frame sufficiently to remove spring which loads that slot corner perfectly.
I will post a thread about the tool I made up to lower my blood pressure when I work on the old series Hammerlis....
No worries though- this one is going out for micro tig or laser welding and this one is being passed on to a top competition shooter who couldn't care less about the repair as the pistol SHOOTS...

6E1A2FCD-8C75-4EB0-AAE3-15AEA68F7874_1_201_a.jpg

The tool-
Just a toe jack which fits up in dovetail for the removed weight.
It is fast to use and loads the frame just enough to pull the spring:

AF6977CB-8901-4D52-A3A3-495D62519BF6_1_201_a.jpg

Last edited by trbnt; 09-22-2020 at 12:34 PM.
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  #14  
Old 09-23-2020, 06:56 AM
LDBennett
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Ontarian50:

I think the poster was referring to the Hi Std Model "HD" (pre 1950ish?), not the Military grip models. The HD's were made decades before the Military grip models. Based on reports here it MIGHT BE that the HD's are less prone to the crack. I really don't know (???). But the same rules applied to the HD might assure it a longer life too.

LDBennett
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  #15  
Old 09-24-2020, 06:28 AM
Nicioli

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To further elucidate, the pistol in question is a mint 1947 HD Military, and for sure I will not push my luck and fire anything in it other than standard velocity ammo.
I´m still confused about to which series this pistol belongs to, 102, 103 ?
Also about the difference between slant and military grips.
I would appreciate any info on these doubts of mine.

Thanks, regards, Nicioli
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