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  #31  
Old 08-04-2020, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
It sure would be nice if a USA based company, any USA based company, would make a line of true Match Grade .22LR.
This is actually not anywhere near as simple as you might think.

Every rimfire plant in the US today is already running at capacity, and has forever. Rimfire is much harder to manufacture than centerfire, and more inherently dangerous. As a result, upgrading an existing plant is really the only option, unless someone is willing to invest the $25M+ necessary to spin up a whole new facility.

And, given that everyone is already running at capacity, what's the business advantage of trying to break into the match grade game? They're able to sell 100% of what they make already, and at enough of a profit to make money.

Match grade 22 requires far, far more QC (which is expensive) and a better manufacturing process (which is expensive), and the ability to easily bin ammunition by lot (which is expensive).

Interestingly, it's got more in common with manufacturing computer processors or LEDs than it does with manufacturing centerfire ammunition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
It would / should be able to be sold less expensively than Euro ammo because it wouldn't have to be shipped near as far. I imagine shipping 100 pallets of ammo on a freighter ship costs a whole lot of money.
You'd be surprised how inexpensive it is to ship via container, actually.

Cost to move a 40' FCL intermodal from the UK to the US east coast is about $2,500 port to port. Add in rail to the central US for distribution is another $800 or so, and final truck delivery for $250. Call it $3,500 end to end.

A 40' intermodal will get you 20 pallets (without stacking), and a pallet is 4' square by 42" tall. Max weight is 44K lbs.

A case of Eley is 43lbs, and measures 20" long by 10" wide by 9" tall.

So, you get 4 rows tall, and 8 cases per row. Total of 32 cases on a pallet, or ~1,400 lbs per pallet.

So, we're weight limited. 44K lbs divided by 1,400 per pallet gets us 31 pallets per intermodal.

31 pallets is 992 cases, or 4.96M rounds.

$3,500 divided by 992 cases is $3.53 per case to get it from the UK to my distribution hub here in the US. Or, if you prefer, $0.000706 per round.
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  #32  
Old 08-04-2020, 02:42 PM
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Angry

Makes me think hard about why shipping a case to my house adds another $25.00 or so to my order no matter where itís shipped from!
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  #33  
Old 08-04-2020, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ADreamer View Post
Makes me think hard about why shipping a case to my house adds another $25.00 or so to my order no matter where itís shipped from!
Economies of scale.

Every time a person lays hands on a box, it costs money.

Moving a full container, the only thing manipulated is the container. Get it on the ship, off the ship, on a train car, off a train car, and on a trailer frame for delivery.

A single box, on the other hand, has a LOT of hands involved. Pickup, sort, hub, sort, next hub, sort, delivery location, sort, delivery truck.
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  #34  
Old 08-04-2020, 06:25 PM
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Call it $3,500 end to end.
Interesting. If I would of been forced to guess, I would have said $10,000 end to end.
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  #35  
Old 08-04-2020, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
Interesting. If I would of been forced to guess, I would have said $10,000 end to end.
Your mind would be blown at the rates charged to go from the US to Asia like Singapore or Hong Kong. There are so many empty or near-empty ships, they'll do just about anything they can to take on a load to make up some of the fuel costs.

Lowest I've ever seen for a 40' is $250. I have heard that big firms that do a ton of traffic in both directions will get shipment from LA or Oakland to Shanghai or Shenzhen for buy one, get one free rates, where the buy rate is $100.
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  #36  
Old 08-04-2020, 10:35 PM
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What frustrates me is I can ship crazy chemicals from the lower 48 to Alaska for about 30 cents a pound but ammo is so restricted. We
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  #37  
Old 08-05-2020, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisteringsilen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
It sure would be nice if a USA based company, any USA based company, would make a line of true Match Grade .22LR.
This is actually not anywhere near as simple as you might think.

Every rimfire plant in the US today is already running at capacity, and has forever. Rimfire is much harder to manufacture than centerfire, and more inherently dangerous. As a result, upgrading an existing plant is really the only option, unless someone is willing to invest the $25M+ necessary to spin up a whole new facility.

And, given that everyone is already running at capacity, what's the business advantage of trying to break into the match grade game? They're able to sell 100% of what they make already, and at enough of a profit to make money.

Match grade 22 requires far, far more QC (which is expensive) and a better manufacturing process (which is expensive), and the ability to easily bin ammunition by lot (which is expensive).

Interestingly, it's got more in common with manufacturing computer processors or LEDs than it does with manufacturing centerfire ammunition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
It would / should be able to be sold less expensively than Euro ammo because it wouldn't have to be shipped near as far. I imagine shipping 100 pallets of ammo on a freighter ship costs a whole lot of money.
You'd be surprised how inexpensive it is to ship via container, actually.

Cost to move a 40' FCL intermodal from the UK to the US east coast is about $2,500 port to port. Add in rail to the central US for distribution is another $800 or so, and final truck delivery for $250. Call it $3,500 end to end.

A 40' intermodal will get you 20 pallets (without stacking), and a pallet is 4' square by 42" tall. Max weight is 44K lbs.

A case of Eley is 43lbs, and measures 20" long by 10" wide by 9" tall.

So, you get 4 rows tall, and 8 cases per row. Total of 32 cases on a pallet, or ~1,400 lbs per pallet.

So, we're weight limited. 44K lbs divided by 1,400 per pallet gets us 31 pallets per intermodal.

31 pallets is 992 cases, or 4.96M rounds.

$3,500 divided by 992 cases is $3.53 per case to get it from the UK to my distribution hub here in the US. Or, if you prefer, $0.000706 per round.
Most of the accuracy in 22LR comes from consistency...it won't cost 25M for the tooling and dies to make that happen.
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  #38  
Old 08-05-2020, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armtx View Post
Most of the accuracy in 22LR comes from consistency...it won't cost 25M for the tooling and dies to make that happen.
Eh - in order to have enough volume to make it a worthwhile business venture, you're going to spend in that area.

Remember, it's way more than just tool and die.

It's explosives handling and licensing - not just for the smokeless powder for the cartridge, but also for the priming compound. Remember, you have to manufacture the priming compound on-site, and insert it into the cartridge on-site.

Then you have to have the land, and the buildings, and the HVAC to keep the air cool and dry.

You have to have automated facilities to handle the priming I talked about above.

You have to have a plan to make the bullets, which means not just tool and die, but also dealing with industrial quantities of lead, which has it's own licensing requirements, plus the segmentation and automation that comes from working with lead.

Rimfire cartridges are, in many ways, far more difficult to manufacture than centerfire. They're certainly more dangerous in almost every way.
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  #39  
Old 08-05-2020, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisteringsilen View Post
Eh - in order to have enough volume to make it a worthwhile business venture, you're going to spend in that area.

Remember, it's way more than just tool and die.

It's explosives handling and licensing - not just for the smokeless powder for the cartridge, but also for the priming compound. Remember, you have to manufacture the priming compound on-site, and insert it into the cartridge on-site.

Then you have to have the land, and the buildings, and the HVAC to keep the air cool and dry.

You have to have automated facilities to handle the priming I talked about above.

You have to have a plan to make the bullets, which means not just tool and die, but also dealing with industrial quantities of lead, which has it's own licensing requirements, plus the segmentation and automation that comes from working with lead.

Rimfire cartridges are, in many ways, far more difficult to manufacture than centerfire. They're certainly more dangerous in almost every way.
But, isn't it true that an existing / established company such as say CCI already has the licensing, the knowledge, and half of the equipment needed to make a true match grade .22LR? They just choose not to for what ever reason. CCI Green Tag, 20-30 years ago was very good ammo. Not so much any more.

My guess is, your average share holder now-a-days wants an immediate return on their investment. If they can produce $0.05 each junk ammo, and the public is willing to buy it, they aren't interested in stepping up the game to $0.20 each ammo. So the Euro companies are filling in the void.

How does Remington keep producing junk like Thunderbolts? Because the general public is fine if they can hit a beer can at 25 yards, and they are fine with a 2-3% failure rate. Competitive shooters be %%%%ed.

Oh well, I guess we should be thankful the Euro companies are willing to step up and help us out.
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  #40  
Old 08-05-2020, 07:51 PM
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Well hopefully this doesn’t go through on next vote. Have heard talk of it in past few months. This could hit us hard not having quality ammo to shoot. Oh well just move all operations here then. https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammuniti...ammunition-ban

Last edited by W8LON; 08-05-2020 at 07:56 PM.
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  #41  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by W8LON View Post
Well hopefully this doesnít go through on next vote. Have heard talk of it in past few months. This could hit us hard not having quality ammo to shoot. Oh well just move all operations here then. https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammuniti...ammunition-ban
Lead comes from the ground, target shooting puts it back to the ground. I'll never understand why a ban. I can see not putting lead into waterways or lakes, but the ground?

Kind of off topic, but not, a famous motorcycle track in southern Illinois got told years ago they could no longer spray used engine oil on the dirt to compact it and lessen the dust. They fought that but lost. Their reason, oil comes from the ground, we are just putting it back. Still lost. EPA said refined oil is different than crude oil. Then they went another route. Can we spray crude oil on the track? Yes, the EPA said crude is a natural element, you are simply relocating it. They used Illinois crude oil from only a few miles away. Works great and everyone is happy. Why not lead?
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
Kind of off topic, but not, a famous motorcycle track in southern Illinois got told years ago they could no longer spray used engine oil on the dirt to compact it and lessen the dust. They fought that but lost. Their reason, oil comes from the ground, we are just putting it back. Still lost. EPA said refined oil is different than crude oil.
That is 100% because of the Times Beach disaster.
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2020, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisteringsilen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3838 View Post
Kind of off topic, but not, a famous motorcycle track in southern Illinois got told years ago they could no longer spray used engine oil on the dirt to compact it and lessen the dust. They fought that but lost. Their reason, oil comes from the ground, we are just putting it back. Still lost. EPA said refined oil is different than crude oil.
That is 100% because of the Times Beach disaster.
Don’t recall ever reading that story!

I grew up in an operating Apple Orchard that was planted in 1907. Dad bought the orchard in 1970 and was taught by the previous owner how to spray the trees. As we were still pruning trees after the first miticide was sprayed we found dead birds scattered all over the farm. Dad immediately began researching safer chemicals. Not a worm or ant lived in the soil. Forty years of ethical spraying with safer chemicals the soil is now alive with little critters. Who knows what we were exposed to all those years, arsenic, agent orange, you name it.
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  #44  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dlrector View Post
Fiocchi 22wmr is rebranded CCI.
I think you're right. The last I heard, which was admittedly sone time ago, all .22 WMR except Winchester is really made by CCI.
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  #45  
Old 08-07-2020, 05:02 PM
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Be nice if they did produce rimfire ammo like the Official 320

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...1199895?page=1
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