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Old 01-15-2010, 09:35 PM
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Consensus on the Canadian Model 8/12/13?



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I think I've ended-up on the fortunate side of a sight-unseen pistol for rifle swap that saw me give up a Glock for a BSA Model 12, or at least what I thought was a Model 12 from pics the other party sent me.

Once I got it home I measured the barrel at 25", the width of the receiver at 1.205" across, the muzzle diameter at 0.75" and the barrel diameter at the breech at 1". So according to research done on this and other sites, it's neither an 8, 12 or 13. Oh, and it does have a C with an arrow stamped on the rear furniture, a number 8 rear sight and the original number 19 front globe sight with flip-up post or circle. It has the bbl takedown nut but I can't for the life of me get it loose, and then after reading about others with the similar problem on the Canuck BSAs, I'm thinking that maybe they were "sweated" on for some long-forgotten reason. Hence, I'll leave well enough alone on trying to get the bbl off.

Some of the threads a while back lamented at the mismatch of parts that make up BSA rifles in Canadian service, but this one has a serial number of 308XX on the bbl, receiver, bolt (lots of case-colouring left), trigger group/bolt assembly housing and on the extractor. It also has a four digit 1152 on the bbl, receiver, trigger group/bolt assembly housing and a lasting imprint of the bbl's 1152 on the front furniture (reversed, of course!)

Although the trigger is relatively heavy to more recent target rifles, it shoots like a house on fire with RWS and Eley ammo. So my question is, at the range watercooler, what do I tell the other guys I have? I'm leaning towards Model 8, but what's the latest consensus? And since these ones don't have date codes, would it be fair to say it's early 20s by the serial number?

Last edited by Strawman; 01-16-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:37 AM
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Strawman,
I have one of the Canadian rifles like yours. I would call it a NO. 12 with a shortened barrel. The NO. 8 would have a thin walled receiver ( 1.0 inch width ).
The No. 13 would have the thick receiver but a light thin barrel 25.25 inches long. These rifles would have been a special run just for Canada. It meets all the specifications of the NO. 12 except for the shortened barrel.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:06 PM
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Well, at the range water cooler most of them won't know what the rifle is anyway so you tell them you have an old Canadian Military Martini Training rifle and they will be happy. The one guy who realy thinks he knows what it is will tell you it is Model 12.

The more I see posted about these rifle the more I know there is no "for sure"

There are some standards posted in Knibbs book and a couple of websites on the internet defining the standards for the various models.

There are also several reprints of BSA catalogs available. The catalogs especially provide a conflict. They list a model and options available such as different barrel length or weight. The options if applied would make a gun similiar to a future model.

As newer catalogs were put out old models would be replaced with newer model that were available with options like old models.

I need to buy me a set of those old catalogs. My friend who had all those catalogs passed away several years ago. After he passed, I asked his son if I could have those catalogs but never heard from him.

Some where in an archives must lie an old contract from the Canadian Government to buy these guns. It wouldn't surprise me, that the standards if any specified, don't conform to the pattern we are are familiar with for the model. The contract might even specify a number of rifle with no set standards. This might explain some of the odd configurations some people report.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:20 AM
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I do not disagree with the above, in my opinion a mod 12 action with a mod 8 barrel rather than cut down 12 as it would be slightly larger diam'. Either using up parts or a different spec for the Canadians. Fun though TJ.

DD I was lucky enough to purchase some fine condition Parker (pre Parker Hale)and PH catalogues a while ago covering the 1930's.
Good hunting .
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:34 AM
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My Canadian trainer sounds like most other peoples', and I call mine an 8/13, which is not an actual designation, but describes these pretty well in my mind. Like others, I don't think there is a model for these other than Canadian trainer, and the time frame for them would seem to make them closest to the M12.
Unfortunately, mine has mismatched serial numbers for the action and barrel, which may be why I had no problem getting the barrel off. I think some penetrating oil and a few light taps on the head of the screw with an appropriate non-metal hammer would probably let you remove yours.
LC
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:24 AM
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Reprints of the catalogs are avaialble.

http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/historic-bsa.php

Sadly my friend had a couple of catalogs that aren't on that list.

Last edited by DoubleD; 01-17-2010 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:07 PM
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Canadian Trainer

I have a BSA Canadian trainer and it is much more like a Model 6. Barrel is roughly 25" and the thin profile. It has a #8 rear sight, no mid sight and a #19 small globe with a flip up blade or peep. All matching numbers and is the thin wall version. Butt stock has a plastic, not rubber BSA butt plate with a stock medallion. As far as I can decifer, it is 1928 vintage based on the markings. Some time ago, I did have someone locate the Canadian order for several BSA training rifles. It was in a book on Canadian Service rifles. I'll try to dig it up. It is a real shooter, despite some brain surgeon putting a buldge in the barrel somewhere in it's past.

Ed
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:15 PM
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This is what I had on Canadian trainers from a past question. Sorry, but can't recall the author. Hope this helps.

Ed


"The search function here doesn't seem to work very well, at least for me ....

I posted some months back about getting one such Canadian marked rifle which turned out to have been altered, including rebarreling with a ParkeRifled barrel, then a second one in unaltered configuration. I was able to locate a couple of those threads, in case that is what you're looking for. (I thought that there was a third discussion, with pictures, of the second rifle when I acquired it, but wasn't able to locate that thread.)

p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=15 37.topic

p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=15 50.topic

Anyway, Canada acquired quite a few .22 BSA small-frame Martinis during the 1920's - I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that the total number may have approached 3000. However, in checking in my copy of David Edgecombe's "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" (which deals mainly with "primary issue" rifles, so this information comes from a brief appendix entitled "Other Purchases Noted") I see the following references to Parliamentary Orders In Council (Cabinet resolutions) authorising two such purchases, which turned up during his research - he may have missed some such Orders, or other rifles might have been acquired without an Order In Council ...

Privy Council Order 440, 28 Mar. 1925 - 1,000 .22 cal rifles for cadets from BSA Co. Presumably BSA Martini's. (His wording - apparently no model was specified.)

Privy Council Order 2394, 20 Dec. 1927 - 500 .22 BSA/Martini #6 rifles for cadets.

Now, in case they may be of assistance, here are all of the images of the second "original specs" rifle I purchased (saved from the online auction listing - haven't yet gotten around to taking any photos of my own.) I have since switched the peepsights between these rifles -

By the way, does anybody know what date of manufacture this serial number [41868] would be? If the above-noted were in fact the only Canadian purchases made, then I assume this rifle is from the second batch authorised at the end of 1927 - the stock disk is marked:
Top - "11/28"
Bottom - "204.C.C." over "4" "
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:10 PM
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My Canadian trainer which has the thick-walled take-down reciever and heavy barrel is serial no. 34,3XX.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:11 AM
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Canadian "Canadian Army Modification and Service Information Bulletins" manual, Small Arms Bulletin C162, dated 4/22/1943 lists two BSA .22 rifles.

#8 25 inch barrel weighing 8 lbs.

#6 no specifics given other than weight is 5.75 lbs. The line drawings show the heavier #8 to have a thicker forestock.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:34 PM
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Stocks

Somewere in my travels, I picked up a set of wood and the buttstock had a blank stock disk (yes, blank on both sides) and marked with the Canadian broad arrow. Always thought it went to a model 12 but maybe it is for the model 8. Buttstock is the wider version with a Bakalite buttpad not the narower Cadet type with the metal buttpad. Forend is not stamped but it is the thickest (in my view tallest top to bottom) piece of lumber I have run across for a BSA martini.

Always something new.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:28 PM
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I've got two of them, and I've alway considered them to be model no.8s.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:36 PM
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MI-shooter, my Canadian rifle has a blank stock disk. The rifle is in excellent condition and looks like it was never in service. I thought maybe that is why the disc is blank.
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