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  #796  
Old 08-04-2019, 05:37 PM
jaia
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Tater...You did that on purpose...didn't ya'?

Hey, y'er doing good with the CZ 100 yard challenge.

I check it every week to see how y'alls results compare when extrapolated out to 200 yards.
Some very nice targets posted


I've been reading up on the aerodynamics of golf balls.
Interesting point, backspin is desirable, provides lift and longer flight.
Sidespin is to be avoided or minimized as it pulls the ball off line depending on direction of spin.
Apply that thought to bullet trajectories and it explains the odd spirals I see.
The bullets, or atmospheric lensing caused by bullets, is visible through the scope.
The trajectories show up against the the white of the backer and are curving not only up/down
but also left to right. It's not wind drift, it's the aerodynamic effect of bullet spin, same as a golf ball.
Understandable why these bulk rimfire cartridges show so much spread. All those dents and dings on the bullets
are ruining any chance of producing repeatable projectile flights. Combined with mv spread
no wonder it's almost impossible to obtain consistent results, with anything but high end rimfire ammunition.

CCI Mini-Mags.............................................. .......Lapua Midas+


Last edited by jaia; 08-09-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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  #797  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:11 AM
Mikey_P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Understandable why these bulk rimfire cartridges show so much spread. All those dents and dings on the bullets
are ruining any chance of producing repeatable projectile flights. Combined with mv spread
no wonder it's almost impossible to obtain consistent results, with anything but high end rimfire ammunition.

CCI Mini-Mags.............................................. .......Lapua Midas+

Very nice comparison, jaia. A picture's worth a thousand words, that's for sure! Thanks for posting.

Mike
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  #798  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:44 AM
bobnoffs

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i have been watching/reading this thread for several years and i guess i don't understand the point of 200 yds. it doesn't represent a distance that is used in hunting with a 22 l.r..the 50 shot groups are probably effected by wind as much as anything and the group size doesn't translate into any useful info for me anyway. what can i take away from a 200 yd. group when i am shooting squirrels?
the 200 yd group is interesting but seems 50 yd 50 shot groups would give more useful info about the 22lr. without throwing the wind into it? yes, i understand factory irregularities are making groups bigger but at 200 yds, so what? am i gonna pick the tightest group i shoot at 200 yds or the tightest at 50? what info did i get from 200 that i didn't get at 50?
what am i missing?

bob noffs
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  #799  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:26 AM
Arrowhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoffs View Post
i have been watching/reading this thread for several years and i guess i don't understand the point of 200 yds. it doesn't represent a distance that is used in hunting with a 22 l.r..the 50 shot groups are probably effected by wind as much as anything and the group size doesn't translate into any useful info for me anyway. what can i take away from a 200 yd. group when i am shooting squirrels?
the 200 yd group is interesting but seems 50 yd 50 shot groups would give more useful info about the 22lr. without throwing the wind into it? yes, i understand factory irregularities are making groups bigger but at 200 yds, so what? am i gonna pick the tightest group i shoot at 200 yds or the tightest at 50? what info did i get from 200 that i didn't get at 50?
what am i missing?

bob noffs
I felt about the same way as you until recently but I have become bored with 50 yard shooting and dont do any 25 yard shooting except when sighting in a new setup or pistol shooting. I have just decided to move to 100 yard and 200 yard shooting to see just what my equipment and different brands and grades of ammo are capable of. It gives me something new to experiment with.
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  #800  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:46 AM
jaia
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Why 200 yards? Time of flight.
It amplifies everything to extremely obvious extents.
I didn't understand a whole lot regarding rimfire when I started tinkering with 22lrs in 2011.
I figured aim, shoot, hit the center, done. You can imagine how well that worked out.
Picking off tree rats isn't punching paper, learned that real fast. Rifle quality, setup, bench,
conditions and ammunition were worked with and tested until I had a basic understanding.
Pushing the range further and further showed there were still things going on that I didn't comprehend.
Where were those odd strays coming from? How do you compensate for wind and still have fliers
that ended up to the left when the wind is moving right. Why so much vertical spread with one cartridge
and so little with another.
At 25 yards most rimfire will chew up a bullseye.
At 50 yards half decent ammo will produce moa results.
100 yards and you have to have competition grade ammo to obtain consistent moa.
At 200 yards, you have to do everything right, and have the best ammo available.
200 yards and most rifles will stay on paper, allowing me to work on my skills
while keeping it challenging. 50 and 100 yards don't make me grin like 200 yards does
when I do everything right and end up with moa results. Easy is boring, l like having to work for it.

How does 200 yard results apply to lesser distances?
Apply the half third rule, remember? Half the distance means one third the spread.
I have the challenge of long range and can calculate the results at lesser distances.
Shoot a 4 inch group at 200 yards, means 1.3 inches at 100 yards and 0.4 inches at 50.
200 yards is simply more entertaining.

Last edited by jaia; 08-10-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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  #801  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:49 AM
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Each and every person I’ve put behind the trigger @ 200 yards ; has a big ole beaming smile. Sometimes they are so giddy they are laughing. People that have shot , and some people who have never shot before. Man or woman , they all have a ball with it.They love hitting something that far away and hearing the delayed ring of bullet striking steel. I’m kinda partial to it myself.
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  #802  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:50 AM
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gcrank1

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We shoot out to 200 several times a year; has all been very interesting and informative to me (and I submit, others of my ilk). Havent seen any other thread like this and glad to have it
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  #803  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:55 AM
Mikey_P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoffs View Post
i have been watching/reading this thread for several years and i guess i don't understand the point of 200 yds. it doesn't represent a distance that is used in hunting with a 22 l.r..
bob noffs
Agreed, bobnoffs, 200 yds does not represent typical distances found when hunting small game. However, some of us compete in 200 yd smallbore target competitions. So, jaia's work is indeed relevant to some people. (not to mention that shooting rimfire at 200 yds is just plain fun & challenging!).

Mike
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  #804  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:43 AM
zukiphile is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoffs View Post
am i gonna pick the tightest group i shoot at 200 yds or the tightest at 50?
Do you have any reason to believe they will be different rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Why 200 yards? Time of flight.
It amplifies everything to extremely obvious extents.
Indeed. Nothing tells you your target isn't distant enough like a really small group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
At 50 yards half decent ammo will produce moa results.
That's not my experience, and it doesn't seem to be yours either. Applying the half third rule, that ammunition would print 1.5 moa groups at 100 and 2.25moa at 200. In your testing, Lapua Midas Plus didn't do that. Eley Match looked barely tighter.

When I have a round that prints an inch and a half edge to edge from my AR22, I declare it a winner and buy more. Maybe that's just the comfort of low standards.

I don't begrudge you high standards you bring with you from centerfire handloading, and the data you've compiled is a real service to everyone. However, when you are describing the best results as half decent, your editorial content may be off a few clicks.
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  #805  
Old 08-10-2019, 11:04 AM
jaia
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Half decent ammo will produce moa at 50 yards zuk.

They're called wallet groups.

Didn't say that they'd do it all the time.

Gotta savor those random acts of accuracy but don't claim "all day long"

The ballistic chronograph numbers and ammo quality comments are the real data.
Fail to fires, case ruptures, wild strays, overly large spread on target illustrate just how good or bad it is.
Not for a small sample, but for 50 or more cartridges each type.
If I had an indoor facility I'd use it, what I have is what you've seen.
No excuses, all the data is there including wind information.
If it helps in the selection of y'er next ammo purchase, good.
If it improves your understanding of rimfire ballistics and variations in cartridge quality, great.
If you get a laugh out of someone trying to use rimfire for accuracy at 200 yards, even better.
If you get someone bragging about how accurate their rimfire rifle is at 200 yards, you have a reality check.

I do it because I can. Because I wanted to try all the available rimfire cartridges I could.
Because it's fun and it relaxes me before I set up my 223 f-class.

I would have never learned how the supersonic transition doesn't effect 22lr.
That one bit of information was worth all the time spent. The study published by the ballistics labs
actually showed that the 22lr was minimally affected by the transition. That the primary culprits causing problems
with hi-v 22lr are cartridge defects and wind effects.

Last edited by jaia; 08-10-2019 at 10:38 PM.
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  #806  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:48 PM
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Thanks, jaia. This is the best guide to select ammo.

Last edited by KeisiMekaigo; 08-10-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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  #807  
Old 08-10-2019, 02:07 PM
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That oft repeated transition theory with 22LR certain has a strong foothold in the lore. With the 'net it will probably go on forever (along with every day, all day long).
Im hoarding my ammo that does 'well enough for the games I still shoot' at whatever distance. That is, I aint popping it off for plinkin practice.
The rest is settling into the better of the results you indicate for funnin around. Dont really need anything more than that here as a selection.
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  #808  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:49 PM
jaia
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Crankster, I'm using bulk Federal 36 grain cphp for pistol and tree rats.
At 75 feet or less it's cheap and effective. For 200 yard paper punching
SK Biathlon Sport is more than adequate. Half the price of competition grade 22lr
and keeps me in the scoring area of my targets...not the best, but good enough.
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  #809  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:11 AM
Triggershoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Why 200 yards? Time of flight.
It amplifies everything to extremely obvious extents.
I didn't understand a whole lot regarding rimfire when I started tinkering with 22lrs in 2011.
I figured aim, shoot, hit the center, done. You can imagine how well that worked out.
Picking off tree rats isn't punching paper, learned that real fast. Rifle quality, setup, bench,
conditions and ammunition were worked with and tested until I had a basic understanding.
Pushing the range further and further showed there were still things going on that I didn't comprehend.
Where were those odd strays coming from? How do you compensate for wind and still have fliers
that ended up to the left when the wind is moving right. Why so much vertical spread with one cartridge
and so little with another.
At 25 yards most rimfire will chew up a bullseye.
At 50 yards half decent ammo will produce moa results.
100 yards and you have to have competition grade ammo to obtain consistent moa.
At 200 yards, you have to do everything right, and have the best ammo available.
200 yards and most rifles will stay on paper, allowing me to work on my skills
while keeping it challenging. 50 and 100 yards don't make me grin like 200 yards does
when I do everything right and end up with moa results. Easy is boring, l like having to work for it.

How does 200 yard results apply to lesser distances?
Apply the half third rule, remember? Half the distance means one third the spread.
I have the challenge of long range and can calculate the results at lesser distances.
Shoot a 4 inch group at 200 yards, means 1.3 inches at 100 yards and 0.4 inches at 50.
200 yards is simply more entertaining.




AND a hell of a lot more difficult! I for one appreciate all of the effort jaia has put into this, as my favorite type of rimfire competition is "200 yds prone with a sling." Let me tell you, if you think you are a decent rifleman you should try THIS type of match. It WILL humble you. It takes a lot of practice AND good, consistent ammo to score well. I agree with jaia, 50 yards can get pretty boring. I'm not saying 50 yard shooting does not require many of the same elements (to score well, that is) that shooting at 200 yards does. It's just that ANY small errors, be they in technique, quality of ammo, wind-reading ability, etc are amplified at 200 and it's just one hell of a lot more challenging in my opinion. THAT's why we shoot rimfires at 200 yds (and beyond..)
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  #810  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:01 AM
KeisiMekaigo

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoffs View Post
i have been watching/reading this thread for several years and i guess i don't understand the point of 200 yds. it doesn't represent a distance that is used in hunting with a 22 l.r..the 50 shot groups are probably effected by wind as much as anything and the group size doesn't translate into any useful info for me anyway. what can i take away from a 200 yd. group when i am shooting squirrels?
the 200 yd group is interesting but seems 50 yd 50 shot groups would give more useful info about the 22lr. without throwing the wind into it? yes, i understand factory irregularities are making groups bigger but at 200 yds, so what? am i gonna pick the tightest group i shoot at 200 yds or the tightest at 50? what info did i get from 200 that i didn't get at 50?
what am i missing?

bob noffs

Are you a hunter? Are you a shooter? Are you a sportman? Then, when you run 100m in 10 seconds, you want to run in 9,99. When you shoot every squirrel you can see at 50m, you want to shoot every squirrel at 100m. jaia show us that, with the properly ammo, tools, and (of course) ability, you could do it. Distance shows clearly the quality of ammo and its capacity to fly, also, amplifies its defects. IMO there is not a best test for ammo than this. Every sportman need to know his limits and the limits of his tools for practice his sport and improve.
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