High Standard Misfires - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-08-2018, 12:36 AM
smilinggilroy

Join Date: 
Jul 2018
Posts: 
13
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
High Standard Misfires



Log in to see fewer ads
I have a High Standard Supermatic Citation which was purchased second hand in excellent condition.
I am having persistent misfires, minimum 1 in 5 rounds.
The rim seems to have an adequate indentation, but obviously not.
Have two bull barrels for this, a 5.5" and 10", both the same problem.
When I first got the gun I was using some Federal Champion ammo. (aprox. 70-100 rounds) with out problems. Then was using Federal Game Shock and after about a box (50) the misfires started.
Decided to replace the firing pin, (purchased from Brownells), still the same problem.
Changed ammo to CCI SV a little better but experienced several non cycles.
Tried CCI mini mag, cycles but still have this darn misfiring problem.
I purchased this gun for Rimfire Silhouette which is timed and no allowances for malfunctions, so not happy.
Can anyone help me with this dilemma before I do a complete dummy spit with this gun.
Thanks
Ian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-2018, 06:21 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,720
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Probably caused by incorrectly tuned magazine lips. These guns are highly susceptible to feeding problems with magazines not tuned to deliver the new cartridge to the direct center of the chamber. If the bullet nose hits the edge then it is deformed and the cartridge does not full seat in the chamber. The firing pin fails ignition because the rim is not backed up by the breech face of the barrel. Another potential problem is the burr to the breech face caused by dry firing. This burr metal has to be swaged back into the barrel breech face with a special tool (see Brownells). Magazine lip tuning or new mags from interarmstx.com are the only solutions (avoid Triple K magazines...un-hardened lips that loose their tune over time). For lip tuning see:

http://www.histandard.info/Jim_Barta/

These guns, if mistreated, crack frames. The solution is the correct OEM 5.5 pound recoil spring or the Wolff 6 pound variable rate spring as well as ONLY using Standard Velocity ammo (box marked as such or the listed velocity is very close to 1080 FPS. The least expensive, accurate, readily available, reliable choice is CCI Std Vel. In addition the recoil spring MUST be changed every 10 to 15 thousand rounds. It lives in a tight cavity in the slide and the sides of the spring wear away, reducing its spring force. A worn out recoil spring allows the slide to hammer on its frame stop and eventually crack the frame.

These are great guns once you get the magazines right and if you maintain them as well as limiting them to Std Vel ammo, only.

It is no wive's tale that they crack frames. There are pictures on the internet. You greatly lessen the possibility with the correct recoil spring and ammo choices. The crack is a fatigue failure. EVERY high level excursion of the steel micro cracks the the crystalline structure of the frame steel. Even if you treat the gun right, it has a memory in the steel of past excursion close to its yield point. Treat the gun like the precision tool it is and you probably will never see a crack. But its past life is stored in the steel.

Sorry about the doom and gloom but it is super important that you follow the above instructions or you may make this beautiful valuable gun into a paper weight or parts donor.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-08-2018, 06:28 AM
Alan Aronstein

Join Date: 
Sep 2010
Posts: 
1,137
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Firing Issues

I assume that you checked for a FP dent in the barrels and for a cracked frame. Did you change ALL of the springs ? Is the FP spring installed correctly ? Is it a magazine adjustment issue ? Did you check the FP Protrusion ? These are a few quick items to check.- Alan Aronstein
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 09-08-2018, 06:46 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,720
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
smilinggilroy:

Alan Aronstein is interarmstx.com. If you want the gun made right then he can provide services to get it working correctly. He has many decades of Hi Std experience and was the man behind the new Houston Texas High Standard Company.

As background, the Connecticut High Standard Company closed its doors in the mid 1980's. Investors bought the name and engineering and opened the Houston Texas company in the 1990's with Alan heading the production of legal clones of the Connecticut guns. This company recently went into bankruptcy and Alan bought the old Interarms company. He is building it and has a supply of High Standard parts. He also has contacts whose business is gunsmithing. They were former employees and assemblers at the Texas Hi Std company.

If anyone can get your gun running reliably, it is Alan. You, of course, can do all the work yourself if you are gun handy. Start with my suggestions and if that is not enough to make the gun reliable then come back and we can give you further instructions, some Alan has already alluded to.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-08-2018, 03:54 PM
saleen322
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2009
Location: 
Pennsylvania
Posts: 
398
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
The other posters gave some good advice. One thing I did not see (may have missed it) was the chamber. The rounds should chamber easily and if they don't the firing pin strike sometimes fully seats the round instead of firing the round. Take the barrel off, make sure it is clear and pointed in a safe direction with the barrel vertical. Take some loaded rounds and just drop them in the chamber. They should fall all the way in until the rim is resting on the barrel. If 5-10 rounds at random go all the way in fine, you should be okay. If not, clean the chamber so they do. Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-10-2018, 08:21 PM
mr alexander
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2013
Location: 
Wisconsin
Posts: 
789
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
High Standard Misfires

smilinggilroy,

The advice from saleen322 does have merit. He has described what some here have referred to as the "Plop Test". It gets its name from sound that's made when the rim of a dropped round comes to rest against the breechface of the barrel. Do inspect your ammo before conducting this test. CCI Standard Velocity Ammunition sometimes has small, hard lumps of dried wax lube on the bullets. If not removed beforehand, they may lead you to conclude that the problem lies with the chamber. It is entirely possible that the chamber is fine and the fault really lies with the cartridges themselves.

LDBennett was correct regarding his comments about incorrectly tuned magazine lips. If any bullet deformation occurs during the feeding cycle, a live round may not get fully seated into the chamber, despite the best efforts of the slide. Here's a test that should only be done on the range:

Have the slide locked open and the safety on. Insert a loaded magazine into the frame. With your finger out of the trigger guard, pull the slide all the way rearward and release it. Allow the slide to slam shut. Do not attempt to fire the round. Instead, pull the slide back to extract and eject the unfired cartridge. Examine the bullet for any severe cuts, scrapes or gouges. If any are present, then magazine lip tuning is probably required. Do note that some slight rub marks on the bullet are normal and can not be avoided.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:43 PM
moonjohn
US Air Force Veteran

Join Date: 
May 2015
Posts: 
319
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Apparently the gun is new to you, so we do not know its history.

The first thing to do is remove the slide and check the frame for cracks.

Next, thoroughly clean/oil the gun/magazine.
If that is beyond your capabilities, get back to us.
My local gun shop will ultrasonically clean a gun for $30.

Next, test the recoil spring.
Remove the magazine.
Lock the slide back.
Remove the barrel.
Rapidly push the slide back (and forth) multiple times using one finger.
It should feel like silk moving back and forth.
If it feels gritty, there is a problem.
Either way, you need to replace the recoil spring in your gun.


Next, replace the recoil spring – Get a #6 variable spring from wolf.
Make sure the recoil spring is installed correctly – small end on the driving rod first.

Make sure the recoil spring driving rod is straight.

With the new spring installed on the driving rod, push the driving rod back and forth, while rotating it, in the recoil spring cavity to see if the driving rod hangs up anywhere.

Thoroughly clean out the firing pin cavity.
Make sure the firing pin spring is installed correctly – small end of the spring first.
Make sure the firing pin can freely move back and forth.
It must not stick in the forward position.
Relaxed, the firing pin must stick out the back of the slide about 1/16 of an inch.

Magazine:
Read “mags, mags, mags” on page 10.
The thread instructs on how to identify a Connecticut magazine and how to run a “Jump Test” and “Push Test” on the magazine.
You need to do all three.
Any magazine except a Connecticut magazine can be problematic, (may never work properly ) so you need to identify what magazine you have.
If the magazine doesn't pass the “Jump/Push” tests, no amount of lip adjustments will likely produce a reliable magazine.

I would recommend that you do not try to adjust the magazine until everything else is accounted for.
That is:
Check for cracks.
Clean the gun/magazine.
Change the recoil spring.
Check out the recoil spring driving rod.
Identify the magazine.
Magazine passes the “Jump/Push” and tests.

You can't correct feeding problems by adjusting the magazine lips when the cause of the problem lie elsewhere.
All you do is screw up/damage the lips so that the magazine may never work reliably again.

The likely cause of the miss-fires like you describe is a feeding problem.
But, not all feeding problems are caused by the magazine lips being out of adjustments.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-13-2018, 06:09 AM
smilinggilroy

Join Date: 
Jul 2018
Posts: 
13
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thanks to everyone for the replies and information provided, very much appreciated. Will be posting findings and updates soon.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-13-2018, 02:41 PM
Mike3838
Emergency Medical Technician NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member Appleseed Rifleman

Join Date: 
Dec 2016
Location: 
Illinois
Posts: 
567
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Some good advice given here, should cure your problems. If for some reason not, sell the pistol, buy something along the lines of a Ruger Mk series where new parts and support is available. I'll never understand the cult like following of High Standard pistols. I tried to give them a chance, I honestly did. They are very nice pistols, they really are, but the frustration, the touchy magazines, the lack of factory support, etc.. looses it all for me. The Citation I had got sold, for the money I bought a NIB Ruger MkII found at a pawn shop, an extra magazine for it, trigger job, and had money left over to put towards a case of CCI SV ammo. This was a year ago. Still shooting the Ruger, have never had to tweek the mags, and have only cleaned the Ruger a couple times. It's every bit as accurate as the High Standard, and if something on the Ruger breaks, I know there's a factory that is open to find support and find parts. High Standards are great for collecting and occasional fun shooting, but not for competition. Not any longer.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-13-2018, 04:42 PM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,720
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Mike3838

The last High Standard made in Connecticut was made in about 1985, some 30+ years ago. How well does your 30 year old car run with no maintenance?

These are precision guns made for high accuracy target shooting. If maintained or brought up to original operational standards, they are reliable. Their trigger is to die for. Yes, they are finicky ammo feeders but not if the magazines have hardened lips and are adjusted correctly. The fast coarse to good magazines is new ones from interarmstx.com. Anyone else's are suspect. Which mags came with the gun? If they were not Connecticut Hi Std made they are suspect. Connecticut Hi Std mags can be made reliable. Gun show Triple K mags typically do not hold a lip adjustment. You can not cheap out on magazines for these guns or they will be unreliable.

The fact that you did not find a source of parts and service does not mean there is none. interarmstx.com offers both. They have connections to Hi Std gunsmiths trained for those gun exclusively. They have decades for experience on those very guns.

I have several premium target guns and the Hi Std guns are near the top of the list. But each Hi Std has been serviced and the mags tuned for excellent reliability. Accuracy is high as well.

If you give up before reaching a reliable gun then you loose out on the use of an excellent gun. The Rugers, of which I have owned two (bull barrel 5 1/2 inch version and a 6 7/8 bull barrel Government Model), can not compete with the Hi Std pistols for use in target shooting. They are a good starter target gun to match the learning experience of beginners whose shooting skills do not exceed the Ruger capabilities. Better shooters want more.

Everyone experience varies and everyone gets to choose their target gun. My experience tells me with results that the Hi Std guns are superior target pistols. You may disagree (??).

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:58 PM
Alan Aronstein

Join Date: 
Sep 2010
Posts: 
1,137
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Target 22 Pistol Support- "In General"

I was at Camp Perry for 3 weeks this year. I did NOT see any gunsmith that was working on the Ruger or Smith & Wesson Pistols !!!! I was there with High Standard Pistol Parts, "X-Series" Pistols, and worked on High Standard pistols that needed service during the matches. In the last 25 years there were almost NO Ruger Pistols shot on 22 Match Day. The S & W Model 41s are still there but the parts for the NEW Model 41s DO NOT fit the older pistols. I was told that by many shooters that bought almost ALL of my Model 41 parts !!! The Ruger MK I and Mk II Pistols have been on the market for years but, they get LITTLE use at the National Matches. I am told by (2) Master Gunsmiths that are Pistol Guild Members that Ruger is no longer selling the MK I and MK II parts to support there pistols. Also, one shooter told me the same thing. I have started making Hammerli Slides and other parts since that plant closed 10 years(?) ago. The National Matches are made up of High Standard, Smith & Wesson, Hammerli, and Pardini- and a few more assorted brands. I beleive that High Standard is still the LARGEST %. The last line count was 6 years ago and, I would bet that it has not changed !!! Mr. Bennett is correct when he says that a High Standard is superb !! The High Standard Gunsmiths that have 20 to 25 years experience and myself are committed to the High Standard vision of Bob Shea and Gordon Elliott !!! - Alan Aronstein
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:23 PM
Mike3838
Emergency Medical Technician NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member Appleseed Rifleman

Join Date: 
Dec 2016
Location: 
Illinois
Posts: 
567
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
How well does your 30 year old car run with no maintenance?
If I had a 30 year old car, I wouldn't race it (compete with it) against new cars. I'd compete with it in a vintage class, equal odds sort of thing. I happen to race a 1956 Harley Davidson. Against other 1950s era bikes I do just fine. Actually, I'm the National Champion 2015 and 2016. Would I race my 62 year old motorcycle against a 1 year old motorcycle? Nope.

The average HS Citation is no more accurate than a bone stock out of the box Ruger Mk series when shot from a Ransom Rest. Add a trigger job to the Ruger, and it will shoot as accurate off hand as a High Standard. That's all I'm saying.

What "support" is available from Interarms TX? Heck, I waited for over two years for them to produce a completed "X series" pistol and all I got was "They're coming soon". I gave up and sold my HS and bought Italian made target pistols.

Don't get me wrong, HS are fine pistols. I just believe there are better out there with better support for parts, and for less money.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-15-2018, 10:28 PM
smilinggilroy

Join Date: 
Jul 2018
Posts: 
13
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
FINDINGS SO FAR:-
When I purchase any gun it gets a thorough clean, inspection and lube before use new or used.

Frame:- No cracks little wear to the finish, this gun has not had a lot of use.
Barrels:- A feint dot on the breech face probably from an accidental dry fire or
two. Passed "plop" test with ammo. chamber squeaky clean.
Firing Pin:- This was replaced with everything cleaned and lubed, pin and spring
put back correctly with all moving freely. The firing pin was purchased
from Brownells and is crap!! it is has strike indentations from the
hammer with only limited use, the hardening is rubbish!
Springs:- After reading first replies I have ordered a spring pack from wolff, (I
believe the seer spring does not fit this model).
Magazine:- Ahh, I believe this to be the major culprit!
Checked out Mr. Bartas' site and the magazine is way "out of tune". Inspected some misfired rounds I had and noticed a slight indentation/rub mark on the nose, noted where the firing pin indentation was and they were all exactly the same. The magazine has done a lot more work than gun, a lot more, and I am in the process of sourcing a new one(s). *Separate post on this issue*
Thanks to all for your advice and guidance, very much appreciated.
Will post results of fixes when done.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:36 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x