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  #76  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:09 PM
VASCAR2
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Thanks for posting the additional pictures. I looked at the owners manual for the Nordic RB22 and the JP dedicated 22 LR. These two conversion bolts and barrel design appear to be the same as RRA LAR 22. The Nordic and JP utilize the same ejector which is held onto the barrel by a roll pin.

The only disadvantage to the Nordic pattern bolt is the extractor which is held in place by a spring and detent only. If you experience an out of battery ignition the extractor, spring and detent are usually lost. The extractor, spring and detent appear to exact copies of the Ruger 10/22 and are inexpensive and readily available.

Last edited by VASCAR2; 05-28-2020 at 02:12 PM.
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  #77  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:12 PM
zukiphile
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Originally Posted by VASCAR2 View Post

The only disadvantage to the Nordic pattern bolt is the extractor which is held in place by a spring and detent only. If you experience an out of battery ignition the extractor spring and detent are usually lost. The extractor, spring and detent appear to exact copies of the Ruger 10/22 and are inexpensive.
...and the spring puts those parts under a good deal of pressure. Wear eye protection if your work on them.
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  #78  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:57 PM
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YW sir. On the bright side, for me, I have 3 different 10/22's to rob parts from, if ever needed.
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  #79  
Old 05-28-2020, 03:02 PM
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I can also say changing the original hammer (the Wrong way!) can potentially cause eye, or reading glasses, damage. But don't ask how I know! Thank goodness my eyes were fine, the ("plastic lens") glasses not so much.
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  #80  
Old 05-28-2020, 04:47 PM
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Does anyone know how accurate (or not) the Nordic Components 22RB uppers normally are? I've looked over the owners manual, but I still can't tell what barrel mine has, verses what Nordic uses, although it would seem more cost effective for RRA to use the Nordic parts, but who knows? Hopefully I can eventually find out. At some point I'll likely need to call RRA about my back-ordered magazines, along with some other questions I have, so maybe I can learn what barrel they use at that time?
In the mean time, I'll post a few photos from my (Vivida GB-460) bore scope of the weird-to-me chamber this thing has. Starting at the breech, the chamber is relatively smooth for maybe 3/16's of an inch. Then it has roughly the same amount of "ribs" machined in. They look almost like threads, but the ribs are not connected together like threads are. Anyway, after another smooth section (that's maybe 1/16 of an inch long?), there's another roughly 3/16's of the ribs, which run all the way up close to the rifling. Note: Rifle was still partially dirty in the photos.



Attached Images
File Type: jpg RRA_AR-22_01.jpg (205.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg RRA_AR-22_02.jpg (181.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg RRA_AR-22_03.jpg (204.3 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg RRA_AR-22_04.jpg (198.3 KB, 42 views)
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  #81  
Old 05-28-2020, 05:29 PM
Triggershoe
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LoneWolf---that looks like some fairly high magnification on your borescope camera. Do you know what it is (5x, 10x, etc??). The higher the magnification, the worse things look of course. Having said that, that chamber does not look too good to me. Those "thread like" ridges indicate a very dull chambering reamer, or perhaps the reamer trapped a chip creating those grooves and that is what happened. Also, the leade is not very well executed either, as some "smearing" of the land/groove interfacing is evident. That chamber was probably done with a production "sporter" dimensioned reamer. I wouldn't be too happy with the way that chamber was done, as everything points to dull tooling. Let's see what others have to say about it...
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  #82  
Old 05-28-2020, 06:05 PM
zukiphile
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I'd be less than candid if I told you I thought those pictures look good.

Another fellow here bought a JP Enterprises 22LR and had a barrel problem. When you buy a complete rifle, I think you are entitled to a level of customer service that has gross defects fixed. You shouldn't be left wondering how your rifle's chamber looks unlike any rimfire chamber you've seen before.
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  #83  
Old 05-28-2020, 07:37 PM
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I haven't seen any magnification information for these. They only rate the CMOS Sensor Camera with the pixel size of 1280 x 720. I forget the details, but this scope has more pixels than the Lyman scope, certainly more than the $50 scope a lot of people have been talking about here at RFC.

About the dull reamer/tool theory. I mean no disrespect, but my "mechanical mind" tells me that the two smooth sections of the chamber would be as rough as the "ribs", if that were true. The two smooth sections are just as smooth as any other 22 I have (for the most part), in some cases smoother. If the tool was that bad, wouldn't the whole chamber be pretty bad looking, not smooth, ribs, smooth, then more ribs, all appearing to be spaced apart or of a certain length, done by precise measuring? I'd also expect to see something that looked more like threads as the tool was fed in, not ribs with a fairly clean edge at the start, and end. The transition between smooth and the ribs looks too good to be an "accident" from a worn out tool, or a stuck chip, to me. I believe the "ribs" are intentional. Or, I hope like heck they are?

I know the chamber "looks bad", but I can't complain about the accuracy, so far. Granted, the conditions sucked when I first shot it, the 2nd time I forgot my rest, but comparing my 1st trip to all of my 22 bolt actions, this rifle grouped (in mostly high-gusty winds) dang close to my 3 most accurate BA rifles. With luck the new SK ammo will do even better, especially if the wind isn't bad when I get to try it. Tomorrow the brick of SK pistol match is supposed to be delivered, so I'll have a 2nd "decent ammo" option to try as well.

I have no idea if these thoughts are accurate, but I did have some positive thoughts on why the chamber is, the way it is. I believe it's possible the "ribs" as I called them, could be meant to "tighten" an otherwise "loose regular semi-auto chamber" to something tighter, better, such as a "semi-match semi-auto chamber". Granted, I could be full of it, and it's just messed up, but I won't believe that until after I get to shoot what I think is "good ammo" on a not so windy day. From what I saw the 1st day at the range, I find it hard to believe it's all messed up. But compared to all of my other 22's, it's definitely "unconventional looking".

Edit: I have several other 2019 purchased 22's with similar looking leades, and they all shoot pretty dang good also. The leades I'm speaking of, have gotten better as I've got more ammo thru them...

Last edited by LoneWolfSS454; 05-28-2020 at 07:50 PM.
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  #84  
Old 05-29-2020, 06:45 AM
Triggershoe
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfSS454 View Post
I haven't seen any magnification information for these. They only rate the CMOS Sensor Camera with the pixel size of 1280 x 720. I forget the details, but this scope has more pixels than the Lyman scope, certainly more than the $50 scope a lot of people have been talking about here at RFC.

About the dull reamer/tool theory. I mean no disrespect, but my "mechanical mind" tells me that the two smooth sections of the chamber would be as rough as the "ribs", if that were true. The two smooth sections are just as smooth as any other 22 I have (for the most part), in some cases smoother. If the tool was that bad, wouldn't the whole chamber be pretty bad looking, not smooth, ribs, smooth, then more ribs, all appearing to be spaced apart or of a certain length, done by precise measuring? I'd also expect to see something that looked more like threads as the tool was fed in, not ribs with a fairly clean edge at the start, and end. The transition between smooth and the ribs looks too good to be an "accident" from a worn out tool, or a stuck chip, to me. I believe the "ribs" are intentional. Or, I hope like heck they are?

I know the chamber "looks bad", but I can't complain about the accuracy, so far. Granted, the conditions sucked when I first shot it, the 2nd time I forgot my rest, but comparing my 1st trip to all of my 22 bolt actions, this rifle grouped (in mostly high-gusty winds) dang close to my 3 most accurate BA rifles. With luck the new SK ammo will do even better, especially if the wind isn't bad when I get to try it. Tomorrow the brick of SK pistol match is supposed to be delivered, so I'll have a 2nd "decent ammo" option to try as well.

I have no idea if these thoughts are accurate, but I did have some positive thoughts on why the chamber is, the way it is. I believe it's possible the "ribs" as I called them, could be meant to "tighten" an otherwise "loose regular semi-auto chamber" to something tighter, better, such as a "semi-match semi-auto chamber". Granted, I could be full of it, and it's just messed up, but I won't believe that until after I get to shoot what I think is "good ammo" on a not so windy day. From what I saw the 1st day at the range, I find it hard to believe it's all messed up. But compared to all of my other 22's, it's definitely "unconventional looking".

Edit: I have several other 2019 purchased 22's with similar looking leades, and they all shoot pretty dang good also. The leades I'm speaking of, have gotten better as I've got more ammo thru them...
LW--I'm sticking with my "reamer picked up a chip" theory here. If that IS NOT what happened, those ridges would have to be created with a second machining operation, not very likely in my view. Feed rates on production machinery can be very high, and chambers cut in one pass. This means the reamer is not withdrawn periodically for chip clearing. Normally this chambering process would be done with "flood" coolant applied, which tends to clear chips and prevent defects such as we are seeing here... However, it doesn't take much of a chip caught between the reamer flutes to create what we are looking at in the photos. A dull reamer would further enhance this process. If this chamber was done ON PURPOSE (the ridges) this would be the first .22RF chamber I have ever seen cut in this manner, and perhaps unique to the LAR22. But I doubt it... I would send a few pics of that chamber to RRA and ask "what's up with this?" Perhaps there is a perfectly logical reason for this

Re the leade area, you are correct that this area usually improves as more rounds are fired. But "smearing" of the lands/grooves are usually the result of a too-high feed rate combined with a dull reamer.

I guess one thing to bear in mind is that your borescope seems to be a very high magnification unit (nice pics by the way), which makes any perceived defect look MUCH worse to our eyes. Having said that, I personally would not be too happy with that chambering. If that "ridged" chamber was cut that way on purpose, I would sure like to know the reasoning behind it. But hey, it's an AR22, these are not usually built to be precision rifles. If yours shoots OK (it's reliable in terms of feeding/ejection and has decent accuracy on target), that is what's really important. Cosmetics are a distant second here.
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  #85  
Old 05-29-2020, 08:13 AM
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Thanks Triggershoe, I understand your points perfectly and why you feel the way you do. I suppose you might see my side of things a little better if the photos told the full story? One thing, that you're right about, is the bore-scope is very powerful, making things very hard to distinguish at times (it's hard for me to tell "high spots" from "depressions" at times, but I'm getting better at it as I use it more). Another thing is, those 2-sections of ridges, ribs as I called them, (as far as I can tell) both sections appear to be the exact same length. It's hard to be positive, but the smooth section when first looking into the chamber (at the breech end) appears to be the same length as one section of the ridges/ribs, I think. What I'm getting at is, although highly unconventional, the weirdness of the chamber appears to all be intentional.

BTW, if anyone is interested, those bore-scopes go for right at $200, unless you intend to use an i-Phone as a monitor, which will cost an extra $50 for the needed wireless adapter thing (they don't come with a monitor, you use your own phone, PC, or laptop). I use a 17" laptop with mine, but it does work with my antique Samsung Galaxy J-7 Prime.

I'm very hesitant to do this, but to further prove how I believe the chamber is intentional, I'll share my 1st target from the LAR-22, and the one from the only time I've shot my Ruger American Rimfire (RAR) Halo edition 22lr (which is a real good representation of my average shooting "abilities", or lack there of). Please remember that I've already told everyone that I SUCK. The target on the right is from the Ruger and I was using (known to have fliers) 2019/2020 CCI-SV ammo. The one on the left of course, is the RRA LAR-22 NM but I was using Fiocchi sub-sonic on this target. At the bottom left, and top right of the LAR's target, those 2-groups are 13/16 of an inch, CTC (poorly hand measured with a 6" machinists ruler). All of the target-dots are 1/2" OD but are not to a high precision due to the sheets being printed with an inkjet printer. Distance for both targets was 50 yards. Please don't laugh at my shooting so hard and long that you get stomach aches... I am, have been tying. Don't forget, the wind was going Nuts that day (with the LAR-22)!
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File Type: jpg NM A4 LAR_22 _022.jpg (130.6 KB, 34 views)

Last edited by LoneWolfSS454; 05-29-2020 at 09:12 AM.
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  #86  
Old 05-29-2020, 09:06 AM
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Triggershoe, you're right in that most barrel chambers are done in one pass (it saves time, thus money). What I think happened with the RRA LAR-22 barrels, and I admit I'm guessing, is that they (RRA) either took a Nordic finished barrel and did their own 2nd machining step (made the ridges to tighten up the chamber for more accuracy), or they may have done the same 2nd machining step to some other finished barrel, for the same purpose. I know with bronze valve guides for certain car engines (I'm thinking of Big Block Chevy cylinder heads) in some cases, the installers will knurl the inside of the guides at installation to provide pathways for oil to lubricate the valve-stem and guide better, but to also tighten up the clearances, or so I was told. This was done to a pair of my 454 cylinder heads ages ago, while I was watching (at a place I'd worked at previously).
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  #87  
Old 05-29-2020, 10:42 AM
zukiphile
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfSS454 View Post
Thanks Triggershoe, I understand your points perfectly and why you feel the way you do. I suppose you might see my side of things a little better if the photos told the full story?
LW, my post is not intended to make a fellow who is happy with what he has unhappy about it. I do have two concerns.

The first is that the chamber will be impossible to keep clean for a normal duration (200 to 500 rounds) and you'll suffer a difficult to remove carbon ring.

The second is that the Fiocchi is a good match for you rifle and the groups you put up are its real potential. Off a bench, I think you could beat those groups with my 20 inch CMMG A2 profile barrel. If a Rock river barrel with a normal looking interior would shoot tighter groups and stay cleaner, wouldn't you want that instead?

I think Triggershoe's suggestion of sending those pictures to Rock River with a request for an explanation is a great idea.
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  #88  
Old 05-29-2020, 11:06 AM
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OK, I made the call to RRA a few minutes ago (Finally). The guy I spoke with (Eric, Erick?) doesn't know about the ridges in the chamber, but will get back to me on it via email. He may request my images if he hears they aren't normal (the ridges).

The "Bolt Catch Device" mentioned previously, that they're sending out (to the "guy at the range"), is not a Catch22, it's a new design by RRA that is supposed to have the last shot hold open and is a manual bolt catch. It's not in production or otherwise "widely available", but I asked them to notify me when it is.

The (RRA marked) magazines are Not made by BDM. They originally thought of going the BDM route, but eventually their "regular plastics supplier" agreed to produce them. Seems there may have been a pricing issue with BDM possibly?

Z, I hear you, understand you, and am ahead of you. Answers on the chamber will hopefully be coming soon from RRA. Please remember the powerful bore-scope makes things far more pronounced than they are in reality. I've cleaned this thing 3 times already, once when new, then 2 more times. It took no more effort than any other pistol or rifle to get the chamber clean. As far as carbon rings, the C4 Carbon Remover takes good care of them.
Those shots with the Fiocchi were off of a "bench". Granted, it's not a true bench in the normal sense, but a temporary improvised solution ("Redneck Engineering"?) due to the virus hitting right before I was going to buy the parts I needed to build a real portable bench. See the photos below for details, but note the 2-jack stands (red arrow) to prevent suspension movement (and to create stability, however limited it is in reality).
The improvised bench thing is a long story, but in simple terms, shooting prone from the bed of the El Camino was KILLING an old injury in my lower neck, so I had to find a way to be sitting...

Until I get to try shooting on a day with little to no wind, and try the SK ammo, possibly as RRA suggested, some CCI-Select, I wouldn't put too much into those wind blown groups I posted earlier.



The prior painful prone way...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Improvised Bench_001.jpg (356.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg Improvised Bench_002.jpg (287.7 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg Elky_Range_001.jpg (320.6 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by LoneWolfSS454; 05-29-2020 at 11:13 AM.
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  #89  
Old 05-29-2020, 11:18 AM
zukiphile
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfSS454 View Post
The "Bolt Catch Device" mentioned previously, that they're sending out (to the "guy at the range"), is not a Catch22, it's a new design by RRA that is supposed to have the last shot hold open and is a manual bolt catch. It's not in production or otherwise "widely available", but I asked them to notify me when it is.
I'm glad you know how to post pictures. You know we'll want to see that.
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  #90  
Old 05-29-2020, 11:25 AM
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I didn't think of that. I suppose since (RRA admitted on the phone to me, to the Nordic 22RB-design use in the LAR-22's) that the catch would fit and work in "Nordic compatible" rifles, but I have no clue about the other conversions. I got the feeling it might be a (long) time before those parts become available, sadly, but if and when I get one, I'll share the photos for sure.
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