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  #31  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:25 AM
AubMassCoyote

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What in the heck would the case have to do with "trigger feel". The two are entirely discreet. I could almost understand "bolt lift" and feeding, since those are dependent on the case properties. And even so, "bolt lift" and feeding are just design parameters to an engineer. Design it right, and it will work right.

Accuracy? What does the barrel know about the case? The barrel only understands the projectile which is in contact with the barrel.
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  #32  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:51 AM
RAVAGE
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Originally Posted by AubMassCoyote View Post
What in the heck would the case have to do with "trigger feel". The two are entirely discreet. I could almost understand "bolt lift" and feeding, since those are dependent on the case properties. And even so, "bolt lift" and feeding are just design parameters to an engineer. Design it right, and it will work right.

Accuracy? What does the barrel know about the case? The barrel only understands the projectile which is in contact with the barrel.
No sir, they're not discreet. Trigger feel has a lot to do with sear load which partially comes from the spring rate for the main/firing pin spring. The other part of the sear load comes from the sear spring. The higher the sear load, the more it affects trigger feel. This also affects bolt lift (cock-on-open) or bolt closure (cock-on-close).

The properties of the brass dictate that one has to smack it much harder which requires more energy in the fire control; more energy has to come from much higher spring rates and to properly accommodate variation in ammunition, 2X to 3X the required rate is common. These things add up fast and affects overall performance.

The "design it right" part should have started with the ammo. Makes no sense to put a turd in your chamber and not expect the rifle that fires it not to be a turd. The BMAG is a prime example of this....

Higher spring rates also affect the ability for one to shoot accurately. How many people want light triggers after they blame their high trigger pull weight for large groups on target? Do you think in the litigious day and age we live in will forgive a company that builds a rifle that will fire when one drops it? Do you think a really high sear load can be held back by a trigger that can't handle that load? Do you think the rifle remains rock solid on the bags when a firing pin hits a case head two to three times harder than it should have to if the ammo was designed properly? Everything in proper firearms design is tied together, nothing is discreet....

MB
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  #33  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:00 AM
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Mike is right about trigger feel, but having owned 2 x Ruger 17 wsm with diff bolt springs and playing with a spring from a 357, you can lighten lift and improve feel dramatically. As for accuracy the 1 in 9 twist Ruger Barrel is a genuine 0.5moa with the 20gr AE.
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:07 AM
RAVAGE
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Mike is right about trigger feel, but having owned 2 x Ruger 17 wsm with diff bolt springs and playing with a spring from a 357, you can lighten lift and improve feel dramatically. As for accuracy the 1 in 9 twist Ruger Barrel is a genuine 0.5moa with the 20gr AE.
Thanks Steve. What you're saying here illustrates my point perfectly. You received a rifle you had to mess around with to get it close to the way you like it, but in actuality, it wasn't possible for Ruger to ship it that way. I won't design a rifle that requires the end user to "improve" it and likely introduce safety concerns.

MB
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  #35  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:29 AM
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Mike yes Ruger shipped rifles that fell short with what you could expect at that price point, however both rifle feed and extract flawlessly. Accuracy is better than expected and superior to the the HMR (was a Tikka). Obviously Ruger don't finish their bolts to a high level however both rifles responded to some polishing, trigger sear swapping and spring changes. They are now safe and the heavy lift is gone. I can't speak for the accuracy of all ammo brands but American Eagle is very consistent.
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  #36  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:46 AM
RAVAGE
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Mike yes Ruger shipped rifles that fell short with what you could expect at that price point, however both rifle feed and extract flawlessly. Accuracy is better than expected and superior to the the HMR (was a Tikka). Obviously Ruger don't finish their bolts to a high level however both rifles responded to some polishing, trigger sear swapping and spring changes. They are now safe and the heavy lift is gone. I can't speak for the accuracy of all ammo brands but American Eagle is very consistent.
Awesome info Steve and I appreciate the dialogue. Your magic words above that sums this up for me and the 17WSM is "price point." The buying public is more forgiving of things they don't like when those things don't exceed some monetary threshold. This threshold is different for everyone, but if I were to ship something to you at the price point we're at and you had to do to it what you did to the Ruger, your feelings about it would likely be different.

This is the magic combination for me....having to work with a flawed ammunition design to provide what I'm known to provide at a price point required to support my design is ultimately a failed product. I'd rather be honest up front and not participate instead of taking your money knowing you'd not ultimately be satisfied with what you paid for.

MB
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  #37  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:59 AM
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Having set up a T/C Encore with a MGM .17wsm barrel I found getting the firing pin hit balanced with the trigger effort wasn't the piece of cake some would imagine for exactly the reasons MB from Ravage points out. I did end up with a very accurate rifle with a good trigger but not without issues.




A "bad" 50 yard 5 shot group...




A exceptional 50 yard 3 shot group...



Five shot groups with a break action rifle are tedious and somewhat difficult but misses with this rifle are pretty much Operator error. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't do this again, the time and money simply isn't worth it after buying a CZ527 Varmint in .17 Hornet.



The center bull was for sight in with the upper left side next and lower left the finished zero, factory ammo at 100 yards.

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  #38  
Old 01-26-2020, 11:41 AM
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Mike with ur better QC and manufacturing I still believe you could make it work, maybe run a wsm reamer into 1 of ur new hmr's. Leave it as a single shot and do some long term testing, trigger need only be around 2lb.

You might just be surprised!
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  #39  
Old 01-26-2020, 11:48 AM
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The reason I have no interest is due to the parent case, a .27 caliber nail gun blank. I have a lot of experience with this cartridge and the industrial properties of the brass and do not desire to make a bolt rifle with heavy bolt lift, poor trigger feel, poor feeding and poor accuracy. I believe other bolt action companies that have stated they'll be offering it get more into the design details, like HS-Precision, they'll probably back peddle on it, or at least they should.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdG7ZcoQt_c

MB
I understand you are no particular fan of the 17 WSM due to its ammo or whatever other reason/s you may have. No worries, you certainly aren't alone, but I surely hope you are aware, the ammo for the HMR and WMR is far from match grade and if you think the results you get with your 22LR builds using match ammo is going to, consistently, mirror that of your 17 HMR or 22 WMR builds, you're going to be very disappointed and likely have a lot of pizzed of customers.

I've shot MANY cases of 17 HMR and 22 WMR ammo over the years and it is minimally at best, better than the 17 WSM.

You made a comment, on another forum, about rolling coyotes at 200 yards with your 22 WMR. If you say you did, ok, I believe you no reason to not, but with all due respect, if you expect anyone to believe that is the norm and nothing but an isolated incidence, well, don't be surprised if you get a lot of these
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  #40  
Old 01-26-2020, 12:37 PM
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Imo if Ruger would’ve made the American in 17wsm instead of the expensive 77 series it would be more popular as more people would have bought and could justify a more affordable rifle that’s gonna shoot really tight groups with very limited ammo choices. I think the big issue is manufactures are putting out very little ammunition options for this round so nobody wants to produce rifles for it. I sure don’t want to buy a rifle and find out it doesn’t shoot good with the three,four, or five options that are only manufactured for it. And also nobody local carries the ammo in stock because it’s not a popular round. I think it has a lot more going for it if a few more manufacturers would make some cheap production guns like the American and put out couple dozen different types of ammo. I’ve had a couple of 17 center fires and I’m not big fans of them. Too much drama with reloading with the thin case necks imo. Last one I had was a limited edition 17 Rem in a stainless 700. I ended up selling it and Using the profits To buy a POF P415 5.56 for a couple hundred bucks more and the 14.5” barreled POF believe it or not shoots tighter groups. The first time I hear Ruger makes an American and 17 WSM I’ll be buying one.

Last edited by Tripplebeards; 01-26-2020 at 03:05 PM.
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  #41  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:06 PM
RAVAGE
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I understand you are no particular fan of the 17 WSM due to its ammo or whatever other reason/s you may have. No worries, you certainly aren't alone, but I surely hope you are aware, the ammo for the HMR and WMR is far from match grade and if you think the results you get with your 22LR builds using match ammo is going to, consistently, mirror that of your 17 HMR or 22 WMR builds, you're going to be very disappointed and likely have a lot of pizzed of customers.

I've shot MANY cases of 17 HMR and 22 WMR ammo over the years and it is minimally at best, better than the 17 WSM.

You made a comment, on another forum, about rolling coyotes at 200 yards with your 22 WMR. If you say you did, ok, I believe you no reason to not, but with all due respect, if you expect anyone to believe that is the norm and nothing but an isolated incidence, well, don't be surprised if you get a lot of these
I hear ya, but if I offer something, it means I already know what the performance is consistently going to look like because I've taken lots of time to develop and test. I'm intimately aware of the differences between 22LR and the magnums but I also know how to make the magnums perform.

MB
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  #42  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:59 PM
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  #43  
Old 01-26-2020, 03:26 PM
AubMassCoyote

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Originally Posted by RAVAGE View Post
No sir, they're not discreet. Trigger feel has a lot to do with sear load which partially comes from the spring rate for the main/firing pin spring. The other part of the sear load comes from the sear spring. The higher the sear load, the more it affects trigger feel. This also affects bolt lift (cock-on-open) or bolt closure (cock-on-close).

The properties of the brass dictate that one has to smack it much harder which requires more energy in the fire control; more energy has to come from much higher spring rates and to properly accommodate variation in ammunition, 2X to 3X the required rate is common. These things add up fast and affects overall performance.

The "design it right" part should have started with the ammo. Makes no sense to put a turd in your chamber and not expect the rifle that fires it not to be a turd. The BMAG is a prime example of this....

Higher spring rates also affect the ability for one to shoot accurately. How many people want light triggers after they blame their high trigger pull weight for large groups on target? Do you think in the litigious day and age we live in will forgive a company that builds a rifle that will fire when one drops it? Do you think a really high sear load can be held back by a trigger that can't handle that load? Do you think the rifle remains rock solid on the bags when a firing pin hits a case head two to three times harder than it should have to if the ammo was designed properly? Everything in proper firearms design is tied together, nothing is discreet....

MB
Thanks for your opinion.

The way I look at it, the trigger is ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT of whatever the hammer falls upon. You can dry fire it, and it should not break differently than if you fire it with a round in. Look at the AR. Put in a trigger group, and it will pull the same way whether you have high end ammo or old Russian steel ammo. The way it fires may vary a little, but not a lot.
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  #44  
Old 01-26-2020, 07:59 PM
RAVAGE
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Thanks for your opinion.

The way I look at it, the trigger is ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT of whatever the hammer falls upon. You can dry fire it, and it should not break differently than if you fire it with a round in. Look at the AR. Put in a trigger group, and it will pull the same way whether you have high end ammo or old Russian steel ammo. The way it fires may vary a little, but not a lot.
We're not talking about what the hammer falls upon, we're talking about sear load and how it affects trigger feel/pull weight in a bolt action rifle.

MB
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  #45  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:08 PM
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I’ve built lots of 5.45 & 7.62x39 AR’s, unless you have a specialty trigger pack you will have to put a Longer firing pin and heavier hammer spring which will make the trigger pull much stiffer. Otherwise you will get misfires. There are different ways to mitigate this but it is what it is.
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