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  #31  
Old 11-21-2020, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
This answer is from 10 years of competition in long range silhouette (up to 200 meters), 100 yard group matches and 50 yard ARA and have set local records in all three.

If you have a precision barrel in a precision rifle and a good solid rest and know how to use wind flag a good lot of high quality match ammo whether it be Eley, Lapua or RWS will be the most accurate. (meaning "find what your rifle likes" applies to lots, not brands. ) Over those ten years, I have tested 18 lots of Eley 10X, Match and Team and have found only 4 lots that were good enough for my competition. I have also tested 8 lots of Lapua Midas and Center X and found two lots that met my expectations. Why is that important? Because in most cases I test four lots at a time and usually find only one and maybe sometimes two that I will buy more of the same lot.

Although I have had lots of both Lapua and Eley that met the grade and were used in competition, recently I have found Lapua to be more consistent from lot to lot than Eley and of the 4 lots of Midas and 4 of Center X all had very consistent velocities and velocity spread.

Now if you are talking about "Target ammo" that is going to be shot at your local range to impress the other guys, then the SK line and low end Eley will do just fine and you can ignore all of the above. BTW, I have only tested one lot of RWS 50 and it was a terrible lot so I have no experience with that ammo but an experienced olympic shooter said on this forum that he has won matches with Eley, Lapua and RWS. So, in the end, it's up to you to find the most accurate target ammo that you are willing to pay for and test lots of.
In short, yes.
It depends what your needs/demands are.
The version for those of us who aren't highly competitive or terribly great testers: Even if you think you've found a brand and specific type w/in that brand, there's likely to be lot-to-lot variances ... and hence a bit of aggravation. It's endemic to the way .22 rimfire is manufactured.
I only shoot one or two kinds of matches and try to find one or two types of ammo to get me through the season, as my time is somewhat limited, and paying for lot testing and case purchases would be extravagant for my needs ... though I can see the wisdom for highly competitive shooters.
I do "casual testing" ... when I get something that's working out nicely at 100 yards MOA targets -- a midpoint for the type of matches I shoot -- I'll go find a perhaps a half-dozen bricks of that lot.
From my CZ 457, I ran Wolf Match Extra for much of the summer, but was getting a bit put off by vertical fliers (most likely deviations in velocity) and switched to SK Biathlon Sport for the fall, with slightly better result.
If I do get the Annie I'm looking at, I suppose I'll give RWS 50 a go and see what I find.
OTH, if I go with a Vudoo, I suppose I'll try some Center-X and see I if I can find a nice lot or two of that.
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  #32  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Schooner1 View Post
Hi Guys
I relivty new to 22lr and want to know whats the BEST ACCURATE TARGET ammo out there.
Thanks Guys
GOD BLESS
Schooner1
Schooner1: You have been asked, but not answered the question of what are you using for a firearm. A Rossi with a shot out barrel? Bone stock, takedown 1022?? Or something like a Cooper? Are you going to be using the ammo in a hunting gun or only on the bench? Most people buy the gun, and then find the right ammo, not the other way around. Who knows, maybe Remington Golden bullets will work best for you and your rifle. Find out before you spend an outrageous amount of $ for high end ammo.
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  #33  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:40 AM
jaia
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It's too bad someone hasn't taken the time to produce an honest representation
of actual results, outdoors, of all the different brands and types of rimfire cartridges
so that anyone can compare chronograph numbers and group sizes if interested.
Something more than just a couple 5 shot random acts of accuracy and the claim of "all day long".

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1204943

Last edited by jaia; 11-22-2020 at 07:46 AM.
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  #34  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
.......... recently I have found Lapua to be more consistent from lot to lot than Eley and of the 4 lots of Midas and 4 of Center X all had very consistent velocities and velocity spread.

..........
How true. When I had my custom benchrest rifle it was quite happy with Lapua Center-X. It shot Midas very, very slightly more accurately, but not enough to justify the higher cost. Center-X in that rifle was more accurate than any of the Eley offerings, including Tenex. But I have pistols that do not care much for Center-X......every 22 seems to be different in what it likes.

It's a shame new shooters who want to fine "the best" will have such a hard time trying different 22 offerings to see which is better. When I was testing ammo for my BR rifle I had 8-10 different ones to try. In today's situation that would be very difficult....and expensive! It helps if they can find someone in their club or range who is doing the same thing and they can share different loads to test. One of the online ammo stores used to allow customers to pick and choose different brands and get a decent "bulk price". Those days are gone.
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  #35  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:46 AM
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I'll give you a real life experience with lot to lot variations. The lot I shot the .319 group at 100 yards with my custom 10/22 was a lot of Wolf Match target that had a velocity average of 1036 FPS and a velocity spread of 28 FPS. I had only bought a brick of this lot. At that time I didn't know about lot testing and heard such good things about that ammo and just proved it to myself. It was so amazing I bought a half case of a different lot. That lot was some of the worst "match" ammo I ever bought. Velocity average was 1046 FPS and the velocity spread was 82 FPS. That lot could barely hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards. That was the day I learned "find what you rifle likes" is a myth.

BTW, I posted this pic on another topic. The rifle was just cleaned and the upper left target was the first five shots from a cold barrel with a lot tested lot of Eley Team. The upper right shot next and the bottom right was the next 5 shots of a lot selected Lapua Midas. If you lot test, you can get good results from any high end ammo.

Last edited by MKnarr; 11-22-2020 at 11:14 AM.
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  #36  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:58 AM
jaia
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Allow me to rephrase that for ya' MK.


"Find the brand y'er rifle likes" is the lie.

"Find the batch y'er rifle likes, then buy all of it!" is the correct advice.

It doesn't matter what label is on the outside of the box,
if the cartridges inside the box are dented, dinged, scratched, chipped, deformed,
poorly crimped, incorrectly seated, have bullet material squeezed down onto the brass over the crimp,
or produce a hefty spread in muzzle velocities... y'er not going to get predictable trajectories.

Last edited by jaia; 11-22-2020 at 11:06 AM.
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  #37  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Allow me to rephrase that for ya' MK.


"Find the brand y'er rifle likes" is the lie.

"Find the batch y'er rifle likes, then buy all of it!" is the correct advice.

It doesn't matter what label is on the outside of the box,
if the cartridges inside the box are dented, dinged, scratched, chipped, deformed,
poorly crimped, incorrectly seated, have bullet material squeezed down onto the brass over the crimp,
or produce a hefty spread in muzzle velocities... y'er not going to get predictable trajectories.
I think the exception here is with the cheap bulk stuff. I've yet to find a batch of cheap stuff that is consistent enough to determine which batch to try to use.

But all your data and some initial testing has convinced me that even on the lower priced end of things, you can get decent ammo and improve results. Now i just have to figure out how well me and my rimfires can shoot, and see where I draw the line on cost.


I'll probably shoot some offhand standing today. Good or great ammo with more consistent MV might buy me a few points, but with the scores I shoot cheap ammo will do for more practice. When I reach a point of better consistency than my ammo, I'll upgrade the ammo I'm shooting offhand.


Your data is greatly useful to me.

Also, more a curiosity question, but do you usually shoot some fouler shots before your testing? I have one rifle that is really prone to fliers for at least 7-10 shots, then starts getting more consistent.
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  #38  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:33 PM
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I think the problem for some of us who still work a 40 (or more) and only shoot two or three club-level matches per month is finding the time to lot test. And, these days, it's tough laying in a personal base supply of good-lot match ammo.
Personally, I get in about one day of practice and one day of match shooting on a match week.
Just my own supposition, of course, but I think guys like me do pay attention to lot numbers. Certainly, we read up, we do some testing and we of course re-zero our match rigs when a lot number changes.
But unless you have a nice-sized stock of a good-lot match ammo already built up, then lately you are at the mercy of a nasty market in terms of choice and price. It's a really weird time to be new to match shooting.
I will be happy when the COVID dies down, demand mellows out a bit, international shipping gets closer to normal and the stocks of vendors who seriously move match-grade .22 are what they once were.
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  #39  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:47 PM
jaia
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SM, no true cold bore when shooting a box of 50.
I have a decent amount of most brands of 22lr available on the market,
so I can send 5 or 10 rounds of a cheap version of the brand to check conditions
and adjust my scope to fit the current poi. Then send 50 of the current box, for actual results.
I try to provide a useful baseline for comparison without any bias.
Anyone can verify my results by duplicating the procedure.
It'd be better if they did and added to the current threads.
The more results from multiple sources, the more useful the comparisons.

If y'er heading out to the range, make the investment and attempt a 50 at 100 or 200 yards.
Long term it adds useful information to the knowledge base, that a few 5 shot groups never will.
Spend an hour or two at the range, shoot some for fun, then some for the education/benefit of all.
Be a contributor, good or bad, post y'er results.

More results from 17hmr, hm2, wsm and 22lr, wmr, wrf or 5mm posted by others, will help cut down
on misinformation or misunderstanding created by cherry picking or random acts of accuracy.

Imagine if the 50 shot group became the basis for claims of accuracy.
Then when someone posted a single 5 shot group,
you'd have to ask: Hey, why aren't you showing us the other 45 shots?

Last edited by jaia; 11-22-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Imagine if the 50 shot group became the basis for claims of accuracy.
Then when someone posted a single 5 shot group,
you'd have to ask: Hey, why aren't you showing us the other 45 shots?
Because it didn't take me 49 shots to hit a squirrel where I aim @ less than 50 yds? Do I win?
A cheap chrony costs approx 5 boxes of match ammo and will save a lot of money in the long run. JMO and no offense to those who aren't frugal with ammo in these scarce ammo times. Sorry Jala but I couldn't hold it in any longer.
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  #41  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:52 PM
jaia
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I don't expect ya' to hold back Al.

Where's the entertainment in that?

Anytime you come up with a zinger, let fly.
Keeps the forum from degenerating into dull and boring.

From what I see posted, most folks don't make a trip to the range to send just 5 shots.
The majority seem to burn up a decent number of shots each trip.
So why not use those boxes in another manner than just sprayin' and prayin'?

Rifle, pistol, bench, prone or off hand, it doesn't matter.
Give it y'er best, send 50, post the results.

Last edited by jaia; 11-22-2020 at 02:57 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
SM, no true cold bore when shooting a box of 50.
I have a decent amount of most brands of 22lr available on the market,
so I can send 5 or 10 rounds of a cheap version of the brand to check conditions
and adjust my scope to fit the current poi. Then send 50 of the current box, for actual results.
I try to provide a useful baseline for comparison without any bias.
Anyone can verify my results by duplicating the procedure.
It'd be better if they did and added to the current threads.
The more results from multiple sources, the more useful the comparisons.

If y'er heading out to the range, make the investment and attempt a 50 at 100 or 200 yards.
Long term it adds useful information to the knowledge base, that a few 5 shot groups never will.
Spend an hour or two at the range, shoot some for fun, then some for the education/benefit of all.
Be a contributor, good or bad, post y'er results.

More results from 17hmr, hm2, wsm and 22lr, wmr, wrf or 5mm posted by others, will help cut down
on misinformation or misunderstanding created by cherry picking or random acts of accuracy.

Imagine if the 50 shot group became the basis for claims of accuracy.
Then when someone posted a single 5 shot group,
you'd have to ask: Hey, why aren't you showing us the other 45 shots?
Jaja,

Just for the record, I assumed you shot some fouler/cold bore shots, but wanted to ask.

As for your format, I'd gladly contribute if they didn't charge an arm and a leg to shoot at any distance around here. I'm still considering it though, but with weather around this area the price is rather steep for "maybe decent shooting days".

For now, I'm using some of your data to help me decide what to test just to tighten up my groups on the indoor range I belong to. The groups might be tighter, but your data helps tell the story of what went wrong if and when they aren't.
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