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  #286  
Old 03-27-2006, 03:54 PM
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What's the deal guys? Both of you want to call the shots, but neither of you have a SuperStocker to shoot???? How fair is that? We suggested a poll (before this thing came to life) on it's meaning, that was shot down or ignored.... We suggested the use of guidelines or limitations, that was shot down or ignored.... We suggested a SuperStock Fun Match, that was shot down and stomped on... We suggested ideas for which we were scolded for (Vince Vs. Newshooter05). I even suggested that "if your rifle isn't a box stock or an Ultimate....chances are, you'll find yourself at home" as a definition, which was supported by Vince & others....but was eventually ignored....

Right idea, wrong leader...
  #287  
Old 03-27-2006, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawdust
One of the presumptions was that people understood what constituted a SuperStock. That, like most presumptions, was not totally correct. The first poster to the 1/4" Club thread wanted to shoot a Rhineland R22 and got all upset when told that it didn't fit the spirit of a SuperStock.

http://www.rhinelandarms.com/

See what I mean.

The gun should essentially look like it came out of the box. If someone can't identify it as a 10/22 or Model 60 or Rem 597...etc. or if you are asked, whats that stock? or whats that barrel? then it doesn't satisfy the "Stock" part.

The Super part is inside and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of restrictions there.
I was staying out of this thread but now you've gone and drawn me into it.

My R22 looks EXACTLY like it came out of the box. The only mods I've made to it are internal. But apparently some people don't like the way it looks, so it's "not in the spirit" of Superstock.

My advice is build your gun up exactly the way YOU want it, inside and out, and shoot it the way YOU want to. Then post a picture of it here and the good old boys will let you know whether it "is" or "isn't" a Superstock. If you make the cut, congratulations. If not, just keep on having fun with it. No harm done.
  #288  
Old 03-27-2006, 05:18 PM
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Snake you're right.

I think the SuperStock forum is a good idea that has turned into a total dissatisfier for some people. There are enough people that are apparently upset with not including every gun in the world of any size or shape and then the others that want rules, definitions and tight structure that it seems that no one is happy. It's obvious that there are a few that are more interested in shooting this down than in building a gun and shooting it. Now thats not all bad. It should give a little satisfaction for some and the elimination of stress for others.

I would suggest that any of the guns will be accepted in the Ultimate forum or the individual manufactures forums. And, there are certainly enough e-mail matches that you find one to compete in if you really want too, but be advised that there are rules. There is even a Small Group Match starting up again. But then again you don't have to compete in anything.

I was all for this forum when it was being discussed but the amount of *****ing and moaning and complaining that has occured since its inception has been a total turn off. So build, or don't build, anything any way you want to and call it whatever you like. You don't need a SuperStock forum for that.

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  #289  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -NH
What's the deal guys? Both of you want to call the shots, but neither of you have a SuperStocker to shoot???? How fair is that? We suggested a poll (before this thing came to life) on it's meaning, that was shot down or ignored.... We suggested the use of guidelines or limitations, that was shot down or ignored.... We suggested a SuperStock Fun Match, that was shot down and stomped on... We suggested ideas for which we were scolded for (Vince Vs. Newshooter05). I even suggested that "if your rifle isn't a box stock or an Ultimate....chances are, you'll find yourself at home" as a definition, which was supported by Vince & others....but was eventually ignored....

Right idea, wrong leader...
First of all I do have what we are calling a SuperStock 10/22 and it would have quaified for this forum in 1976 if there had been such a thing. At the moment it is in about as many pieces as a 10/22 can get as it is being rebuilt and I am waiting on a barrel that is being machined at someone elses convience.The name of the forum and the idea for it came from me and again it seems to me that no good deed goes unpunished. I did not claim to be the leader of the forum it is a RFC forum and like the others it has no "Leader" so let's quash THAT idea RIGHT NOW. I was trying to save a bunch of old guns while at the same time showing shooter they did not have to build an Ultimate too grotesque to take hunting or plinking. I've always liked lively light weight guns.

You want to organize a competition go right ahead. NO ONE is stopping you. Yuo're welcome to all the headaches that come with it. I never stopped it. Gmc Fixer started low dough and wants to include SS. Told him I would help but in the past MOST of the people shooting SS or planning to were not that interested. You want to do it, go for but be warned you will need a bottle of aspirin. Then YOU can be a "Leader" and take the pot shots from all the wanna be's that do nothing but want to drive from the freaking back seat!!! BE MY GUEST

Each thing that was shot down was shot down by a marjority of posts. I could be wrong but I believe at one point Sawdust was one person that said if there were rules he wasn't interested. I have never without backing of a majority shot down anything.

As for Snake, I respect you but the R-22 is NOT a sporter by any definition. Having said that now and before there is NOTHING I can do to keep you or antone else from posting it here.
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  #290  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:31 PM
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I never asked for rules just a definition. It appears that one cannot be provided so I'll shut up. I don't know what a Superstock rifle is and I gues I never will. I have my own idea what one is and I'll live by that. If I see a rifle that I don't think belongs in this section I'll bite my toung and keep my mouth shut.

You folks have a great litle forum here and I'm sure it will be flooded with everything imaginable in due time. You guys have fun and enjoy it.

Peace,
swampf0x
  #291  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:36 PM
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I'm beginning to wonder why anyone would want to do anything in RFC because as soon as you do there will be 10 people standing inline to critize but would NEVER get up actually do something good on their own. You want be a positive influence here? Great. If not why not just just let the people that ARE doing something do it instead of constantly WHINING. ASK GMC Fixer or Sawdust how fun it is to get out front and actually try to do something. It is NOT fun. SCREW IT!!!
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  #292  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:39 PM
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I'm going to take Swampy's stance on this, because there DOES need to be a definition. What's the point of making a forum that's special and unique if it itself doesn't carry anything unique about it? "Build what you want" - how is that "superstock"? The forum should be called "Build whatever because you don't fit in with the Ultimates" if that's everyone's attitude; personally, I think that's a ghey name for a forum, don't you?

I think superstock should be just that: stock. You can't use an aftermarket barrel on a stock gun, that's totally defeating the point. Sorry if this offends anyone that doesn't want to build up anything to an ultimate or keep it uber stock, but that's your choice for going to the middle ground. This forum is for STOCK guns only.

Edited in after I read Vincent's post:
I perhaps may have been missing an abundant part of the argument going on in here. This place is a big melting pot, with as many opinions as there are users. We're never going to make the consensus happy. Making rules to fit everybody's whining never helps, nor does making rules for the few that actually play by it. This forum is trying to include as many people as possible, but give the feel of exclusivity.

Ya can't straddle the fence. It doesn't matter who takes over, or if anyone ever does. But pick a side and stay with it. Those that wanna play will play, those that get their feelings hurt will find a new place or try to play too.

Last edited by MinusB; 03-27-2006 at 06:43 PM.
  #293  
Old 03-27-2006, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampF0X
I never asked for rules just a definition. It appears that one cannot be provided so I'll shut up. I don't know what a Superstock rifle is and I gues I never will. I have my own idea what one is and I'll live by that. If I see a rifle that I don't think belongs in this section I'll bite my toung and keep my mouth shut.

You folks have a great litle forum here and I'm sure it will be flooded with everything imaginable in due time. You guys have fun and enjoy it.

Peace,
swampf0x
Not to pick on you Sawdust but didn't you a couple weeks ago say you did not want rules and if there were you did not want to be part of it?? I'm OK with you either way but that was what I remembered. Do not take this as an attack, it is not.
At least you are trying to do something constructive. I think what you and I came up with today ARE good guide lines don't you?
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  #294  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusB

Edited in after I read Vincent's post:
I perhaps may have been missing an abundant part of the argument going on in here. This place is a big melting pot, with as many opinions as there are users. We're never going to make the consensus happy. Making rules to fit everybody's whining never helps, nor does making rules for the few that actually play by it. This forum is trying to include as many people as possible, but give the feel of exclusivity.

Ya can't straddle the fence. It doesn't matter who takes over, or if anyone ever does. But pick a side and stay with it. Those that wanna play will play, those that get their feelings hurt will find a new place or try to play too.
I have repeatedly given what I think is it and the majority of people already ih or coming in agreed to it.

Barrels are open to any barrel that is stock, machined stock or after market sporter profile. I gave my word on that and will not back away from it.

Stocks are either factory stock or "trimmed" factory stock.

Inside the rifle you can replace/work on all parts in the receiver. You can tune factory parts like wht I did 30 years ago on mine or you can get Power, VQ, Skeeter parts. go for it

Those have pretty much been my "guidlines" from the start. like it or not.

However if someone shows with a Running boar barrel but other wise by the rules Who am I to tell him he screwed HIS gun up???? He can post here, I can not and will not stop people from posting their guns. THAT IS NOT MY PLACE. I see rifles all the time in Ultimates that have a fat barrel and a Houge stock and they call it an Ultimate. To me it is not. But NOBODY tells that guy he can't post it there. He's proud of that rifle. Same thing will happen here. What happens when I do say that I feel a rifle does not qualify? Like Snake's R-22 we are still talking about it days later. Can I stop him from posting if he chooses to? NO!! I have no more authority here than you do. I managed people in industry for almost 30 years because next to my name it said "Quality Manager" and NO ONE doubted where I stood or what needed to be done. It does not say "Forum Manager" next to my name here and if it did we would not be having this discussion.
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  #295  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:11 PM
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WOW What the heck

Kinda wondering what happened to "run what ya brung" and eveyone getting along......coming from a racing back ground in my sight of Super Stock as long as you keep the stock appearance your good. never seen a super stock with a stock engine and wheels...just my thought after reading all this ...

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  #296  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromie
Kinda wondering what happened to "run what ya brung" and eveyone getting along......coming from a racing back ground in my sight of Super Stock as long as you keep the stock appearance your good. never seen a super stock with a stock engine and wheels...just my thought after reading all this ...

Chromie
EXACTLY RIGHT CHROMIE...Thank you. That is my background too and you are 100% correct
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  #297  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:26 PM
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Vincent, I agree with you - it's not our place to tell someone they can or can't post their rifles anywhere. I'm one of the biggest believers in the word "ultimate" though, and probably got myself a few new enemies after Markbo made that thread in the Ultimates forum: if it isn't the best thing you can think of, then by God, it's not Ultimate. But I'm also of the feeling that when we say "stock", we mean "stock" and not some liberal interpretation thereof. In your example, why is it okay to have a sporter taper barrel, but not a muzzle weighted barrel? Are they not both aftermarket barrels? Do they both not have better crowns and chambers than our stock barrels? To allow one means allowing another, until you've washed out the whole point to this forum to begin with.

I understand what you mean about superstock racing; my background is racing too, but not cars like I assume you gentleman must have raced. In jetskis, superstock meant STOCK parts though, and not just an appearance. And just like cars, we had different classes from "stock" up through "modified", which was usually the pro class. Our superstock class allowed the use of highly modified stock class machines (porting, carb mods, pump mods, etc), but not the bolt-on parts that the "limited" class allowed.

And that's probably why I'm interpreting this the way I am - while you see "superstock" as a genuinely acceptable classification, I see "stock" as the real reason for doing this. To use your analogy of all the un-ultimate ultimates, going half-way with a superstock just doesn't seem as extreme to me. Really, this kinda straddles the fence (in my mind) because there are so many ultimates that are pretty blase, and now we'll have some superstocks that are just a step down from an ulti. I'm all about 100% stock parts, personally, and would like to see more shooters take on THAT challenge, instead of just adhering to a stock appearance.

Am I willing to head up a forum? No stinkin' way! Will I abide by a set of classifications, and likely build something to serve as an example? No doubt.
  #298  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:30 PM
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I'm still of the thinking that we don't need hard fast rules. I thought you had nicely described a concept that most folks could associate with for something a little more than box stock. As it is turning out no one wants any limits so why have a forum devoted to doing anything you want too with what ever you want too and no format or competition. RFC in general should suite them very nicely. I'm getting to where the need for a forum entitled SuperStock is meaningless. An "Anything Goes" forum would be more appropriate. Also, if my 1/4" Club thread is objectionable just let me know and I will pull it.

sawdust
  #299  
Old 03-27-2006, 07:34 PM
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after thought

I didn't agree at first but, after giving this alot of thought, I kinda wondered, if its ok for Snake to post his pic. of his groups here, then why cant he be included in everything else?.......I know the R22 isn't exactly what some have in their minds as a Super Stock but just where does a rifle like that fit in??....I'm not trying to feed the fire here just a thought and kinda courious as to what you guys think....it's all good to me either way....just courious

Chromie
  #300  
Old 03-27-2006, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawdust
Vincent

I'm still of the thinking that we don't need hard fast rules. I thought you had nicely described a concept that most folks could associate with for something a little more than box stock. As it is turning out no one wants any limits so why have a forum devoted to doing anything you want too with what ever you want too and no format or competition. RFC in general should suite them very nicely. I'm getting to where the need for a forum entitled SuperStock is meaningless. An "Anything Goes" forum would be more appropriate. Also, if my 1/4" Club thread is objectionable just let me know and I will pull it.

sawdust
Why don't we post your stuff in SuperStock but you specify what YOUR rules are. Please though make it clear that the rules are for you contest NOT for the forum overall. I see no reason that will not work. Chances are the vast majority of SS rifles will fit your rules anyway. Let's all get happy here this is not what I wanted here. This was supposed to be better than this.
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