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  #46  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M52E1 View Post
I believe I did comment on the original question Bill
You didn't include a quote but rather posted after a 100 yd target, hence the confusion.

Carry on.
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  #47  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:23 PM
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I'm just wondering if the wind drift differences between sub and supersonic loads is being exaggerated. Looking at the stats for Eley Force leaving the muzzle at 1240
it is subsonic by 55yds. Time of flight for the Force is shorter for the first 50 yds vs the subs and the windage should be the same past 55 yards. Thoughts?
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  #48  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:34 PM
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The ballistics study run on match quality 22lr, stated only slightly greater wind drift.
That would match that limited time at supersonic speeds.
It doesn't read major difference due to wind drift.
The quality of y'er 22lr has more effect on results than the rated bullet speed.
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  #49  
Old 11-22-2019, 07:26 PM
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Though I think it fair to say that anything that puts 'a bullet off' up close is going to translate into a wider degree of error 'on out there'.
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:35 PM
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FWIW, Eley Force is usually in the 1175 fps range if you shoot it over a chronograph. The 1250 fps that Eley originally claimed was probably a creation of their marketing folks.
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  #51  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:37 PM
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The wind drift is not being exaggerated at all. I encourange the non-believers to go out to a local range and shoot some 1,050 fps Eley Match at 50 and 100 yards with a 5 - 10 mph cross wind. Then using the same rifle perform the same test with ammunition that is 1,200 fps and greater and see what happens.

Higher velocity .22 ammunition was made for hunting / plinking and really isn't capable of providing match grade performance. If there were an advantage to shooting 1,200+ fps ammunition then prone shooters would have adopted this ammunition years ago.

Bill
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  #52  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:40 PM
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Ballistic calculator shows this:
A. Eley 40 grain round nose bullet muzzle velocity 1060 fps, 10 mph 90 degree
crosswind. Drift at 100 yards is 3.7", 200 yards is 14"

B. CCI Minimag 40 grain round nose bullet muzzle velocity 1230 fps, same wind
condition, 100 yards drift is 5.3", 200 yards is 18.9"

C. CCI Stinger for fun's sake, 32 grain hollowpoint bullet muzzle velocity of 1570 fps
(chronographed from MY guns has never met advertised speeds), wind conditions
unchanged from above, drift at 100 yards is 7.3", at 200 yards is 27.6". DOUBLE
that of the Eley target loadings. Hitting something with a hyper-velocity .22 long
rifle is not easy at all if the wind is blowing, and these figures at only 10 mph.
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  #53  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M52E1 View Post
The wind drift is not being exaggerated at all. I encourange the non-believers to go out to a local range and shoot some 1,050 fps Eley Match at 50 and 100 yards with a 5 - 10 mph cross wind. Then using the same rifle perform the same test with ammunition that is 1,200 fps and greater and see what happens.

Higher velocity .22 ammunition was made for hunting / plinking and really isn't capable of providing match grade performance. If there were an advantage to shooting 1,200+ fps ammunition then prone shooters would have adopted this ammunition years ago.

Bill
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  #54  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil in Alabama View Post
Ballistic calculator shows this:

muzzle velocity 1060 fps. drift at 100 yards is 3.7"

muzzle velocity 1230 fps. 100 yards drift is 5.3"

muzzle velocity 1570 fps. 100 yards drift is 7.3"

Thx Phil.
I would have thought that the higher the 22LR velocity
would have the lessor wind drift, but this is showing just the opposite.
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  #55  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:12 AM
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Yep, plus difference in weight and density...32 gr hollow points vs. 40 gr round nose.
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  #56  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:20 AM
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Stingers have a terrible ballistic coefficient, I think .083. Most of the 40 grain bullets are in the area of .120-.140. Amongst the speedier .22 long rounds, CCI's Velocitor is much better.
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  #57  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:55 PM
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Eley makes good quality HV HP ammo. It shoots very well. It is the quality of ammo not subsonic ammo that makes target ammo. The first issue of Winchester Power Points from Australia. I have recorded velocity spread of 10 shots being 18fps and 25fps. The smaller the velocity spread the more accurate the ammo. It doesn't matter whether it is subsonic or HV ammo. You must also have a good barrel. I bought a 40XB and sporterized it. That is the gun I used to shoot the groups with. I have plenty of first issue Win. P.P. but only a few bricks of the lot that shot those groups. I do have some great 200 yard groups too.

I also tested about 30 different makes and models of 22 rifles with over 20 different makes and types of ammo. I found that Remington barrels gave the fastest and most consistent velocities. The 40X at 28" and the 540XR at 26" gave faster velocities than the 16" Chipmunk with the same ammo.

It is the smallest velocity spread is what gives the best accuracy. NOT rim thickness, subsonic ammo, not lub on the bullets. It is time to bust the myth of transition from super sonic to sub sonic causes destabilized bullets. I have read the papers with all the math that says going subsonic causes destabilization. Even math guys make mistakes or do not take all factors into consideration. If the demand for tightly controlled ammo was greater than the demand for subsonic ammo we would most definitely would have better ammo. But that would come at a cost that such ammo would be harder to get. Manufacturers just could not produce such ammo as quickly as they can other 22 ammo.
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  #58  
Old 12-04-2019, 08:00 PM
M52E1
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Evidently the concept of wind drift and high or higher velocity ammunition must have been left at the curb. What would be the point of "match grade" high velocity .22 ammunition is its wind drift is significantly higher than subsonic?

Some real world examples come to mind

2017 - I shot the NRSA championships at the Century range at Bisley and on the last day of competition I came off the line at 100 yards with 5 minutes left wind on my sights (I was shooting Eley Tenex 1,061 fps) If there were "match grade" high velocity perhaps I would have had to have used 7 - 8 minutes left which would have exaggerated any let offs or switches

2018 - ASSA 6400 which was held at the Cardinal Center in Ohio and on the first day of competition the winds were ranging between 15 - 25 mph with gusts near 30 mph. Once again at 100 yards I came off the line with 5 1/2 minutes left on my sights (I was shooting Eley Tenex 1,061 fps). High Velocity ammunition even it was capable of shooting 1/2 minute groups would have been a disaster.

With 100 years of smallbore prone competition shooting in the US (50 yards, 50 meters, 100 yards and years ago at 200 yards) there has never been a demand for high velocity match ammunition. That should be a clue that there must be a reason and beyond the lack of quality is the fact that the bullet does not perform when it comes to wind drift. Competitive shooters are not and never have talked about "the performance of the bullet in the transonic region," however they will talk you ear off as to how their particular lot of match ammunition performs in the wind.

Shooting at well protected range will not bring out the problems with high velocity ammunition other than its quality control problems. However when you shoot on a completely unprotected range (Camp Perry) or a range with significant wind exposure then the high velocity ammunition will lose every single time.

Bill
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  #59  
Old 12-04-2019, 09:14 PM
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Pretty good nutshell, that M
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  #60  
Old 12-04-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M52E1 View Post
Evidently the concept of wind drift and high or higher velocity ammunition must have been left at the curb. What would be the point of "match grade" high velocity .22 ammunition is its wind drift is significantly higher than subsonic?

Some real world examples come to mind

2017 - I shot the NRSA championships at the Century range at Bisley and on the last day of competition I came off the line at 100 yards with 5 minutes left wind on my sights (I was shooting Eley Tenex 1,061 fps) If there were "match grade" high velocity perhaps I would have had to have used 7 - 8 minutes left which would have exaggerated any let offs or switches

2018 - ASSA 6400 which was held at the Cardinal Center in Ohio and on the first day of competition the winds were ranging between 15 - 25 mph with gusts near 30 mph. Once again at 100 yards I came off the line with 5 1/2 minutes left on my sights (I was shooting Eley Tenex 1,061 fps). High Velocity ammunition even it was capable of shooting 1/2 minute groups would have been a disaster.

With 100 years of smallbore prone competition shooting in the US (50 yards, 50 meters, 100 yards and years ago at 200 yards) there has never been a demand for high velocity match ammunition. That should be a clue that there must be a reason and beyond the lack of quality is the fact that the bullet does not perform when it comes to wind drift. Competitive shooters are not and never have talked about "the performance of the bullet in the transonic region," however they will talk you ear off as to how their particular lot of match ammunition performs in the wind.

Shooting at well protected range will not bring out the problems with high velocity ammunition other than its quality control problems. However when you shoot on a completely unprotected range (Camp Perry) or a range with significant wind exposure then the high velocity ammunition will lose every single time.

Bill
I must respectively disagree with you. I live in central Montana. I know about wind. I have had less wind drift with HV ammo than match grade or subsonic. I have a 20" gong at 200 yards. It is painted yellow. There is a white 4" flapper covering the center hole. It is easy to see that match or subsonic ammo hits the outer edge or misses the gong. And the HV ammo hits about 4" or 6" closer to the middle depending on the speed of the wind. I can't quite hit the flapper without holding into the breeze. About 5 to 10 mph.

We have what I call the "lull vacuum". The wind will drop all of a sudden. I have my rifle sighted to hit dead on at 200 yd. I will hold on the flapper and the bullet will hit to the left edge of the flapper or just to the left of the flapper on the gong. What I think happens is the wind dies down and actually reverses direction momentarily and pushes the bullet to the left. If you haven't guessed the wind blows from west to east in my neck of the woods.

I think why target shooters haven't called for HV match grade ammo is because they shoot the way it has always been done. It is the guy who thinks outside of the box is the guy to make big changes is whatever area of life. The things that come to mind is the world is round and not flat. The rear engine dragster. Willing to try something different because you aren't satisfied with the status quo. That is how progress is made. A lot of the time the progress is made because of war. Free enterprise allows the greatest freedom of innovation.
John
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