Model 12 Cartridge misaligned going into chamber - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2020, 10:57 AM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Model 12 Cartridge misaligned going into chamber



Log in to see fewer ads
Hello. Brand new to this forum, and I sure could use some help with an early Remington Model 12.

I've been looking at the archives here and haven't seen my problem, but if the solution's already here, I'm hoping someone could point me toward it. I probably don't even have the right terms to describe my problem, but here's my best effort.

When the extractor is holding the cartridge just before inserting into the barrel, the cartridge is skewed toward the left side of the gun enough that it won't load. If I lift the cartridge just a bit with a hooked tool, it goes right in, fires and ejects just fine. Although I have reason to believe this gun has been dry fired a lot, there doesn't appear to be any deformation where the bullet goes into the barrel, and no scratches on the side of the cartridge after it comes out.

I've cleaned all the parts very thoroughly. It seems to me if the extractor just had a little more metal in the gap where the rim of the cartridge fits, it would hold it straight.

Am I on the right track?

I'll try to post an image or two.

I hope this shows the misalignment:
[IMG][/IMG]

I hope this shows the extractor parts:
[IMG][/IMG]

And if I'm doing it right, this will show the extractor in place:
[IMG][/IMG]

Thank you for any advice.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-05-2020, 11:39 AM
pump .22s's Avatar
pump .22s
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2010
Location: 
Deep East Texas
Posts: 
12,065
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I have dealt with this issue in the past. While the front of the cartridge retainer can act as sort of a ramp to help guide the cartridge nose into the chamber opening, it cannot compensate for a badly misaligned cartridge. In my experience, if the extractor does not grip the cartridge to the bolt face tightly enough, you can have issues with misalignment feeding. The way I have corrected this in the past is to install a new extractor.....one that will give a snug cartridge to bolt face fit.

Since you the extractor, spring, and plunger removed from the bolt, I assume you have already done this.....but before going the new extractor route be sure that there is no crude in the area of the bolt where the extractor sits that may interfere with the proper functioning of the extractor. If necessary, remove the extractor from the bolt and give all a good cleaning with a good solvent. Should that fail to help, you may need to consider ordering a new extractor....order two as these sometimes require a little fitting/adjusting.

Good luck,

James

EDIT: One other point....the shape of the bullet nose can greatly affect feeding on guns with slight feeding issues due to bullet misalignment. Try feeding some other types of cartridges with round noses. Also.........it is highly recommended that you not use high speed ammo in these old guns. They have marginal strength in the chamber lock up, and while you may get away with shooting high speed ammo in that gun, you may also ultimately have the bolt fail. I use CCI standard velocity in all my older rimfires not made to withstand modern high pressure ammo.

Last edited by pump .22s; 04-05-2020 at 11:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-05-2020, 12:09 PM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thank you for replying, James. Your posts and photos here were a big help getting me to this point with the gun.

I did find some crud under the extractor and hoped it was my problem, but cleaning didn't solve it.

I'll find a new, early extractor and see what it does for me. Not sure if there's a preferred source for a part like this, but I'll get one on its way.

I did try both shorts and long rifle, and had feeding issues with both. And I've read here to stay away from the high speed ammo.

I appreciate your help.

Mark
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 04-06-2020, 04:33 PM
pete379
US Army NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
235
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Yeoman, here's what I did to one of my model 12's that tilted the cartridge to the inside like yours. I stuck it in the jaws of a vice-grip lengthwise and squeezed the pointed end slightly closer to the rounded end. I must have tweaked it just right as it holds the cartridge straight and works now. Perhaps a good vice would be more precise.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-07-2020, 07:30 PM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
That does sound like an idea worth trying. The first place I tried to order a new extractor from was out of stock, and before moving on to the next I ordered some dummy aluminum rounds. When they arrive, I'll try a few things with the extractor I've got.

I read on this forum that someone broke their extractor, because it's hardened steel. I'll try very carefully to bring that hook in a few thousandths. I have a smooth faced vise, or could even tap the tapered edge with a variety of hammers. I should learn if I can help myself by heating with a propane torch.

If this was a hard to find car part, I'd add a little metal using the MIG and file it to fit. Or even a thin layer of JB Weld just to test the idea that closing the gap a bit will solve the problem. I assume JB wouldn't hold up in this spot, but I've been surprised by it's durability before.

It would be great to get this gun working. It's pretty early in the production run, so may have seen lots of use. Serial number is 83XXX and the barrel doesn't even show the 1911 patent dates.

Thanks for your reply.

[IMG][/IMG]
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-08-2020, 09:07 PM
pete379
US Army NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
235
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Model 12 extractor

Yeoman, another fix that often works is to file the bottom of the extractor where it hits the stop on the bolt to allow it to move in a little more. BTW, Model 12's made in 1911 should be between SN 55105 and 104041.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-09-2020, 07:30 AM
tickridger
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2013
Location: 
southern tip of Illinois
Posts: 
857
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Pete's idea sounds good to me. Careful fitting is usually better than applied force.

John
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-09-2020, 07:55 AM
pump .22s's Avatar
pump .22s
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2010
Location: 
Deep East Texas
Posts: 
12,065
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
The new ones I've purchased required some fitting to work properly.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-10-2020, 10:04 AM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Good to know it's from 1911. I thought I'd be able to find that information, but sounds like I don't know where to look.

I do like the idea of filing instead of bending. Is the bolt the same as the plunger?

The dummy rounds are supposed to arrive today and I'd like to experiment.

I imagine I'll still buy an extractor, but haven't seen one yet that looks like the one in my gun.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:20 PM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I have an update on my misalignment problem, and more questions.

Adding just a bit of JB Weld to the extractor made the gun function. It cycles without jamming, shorts and long rifles. Probably still not aligned just right, so I got a new extractor from S. Dakota. Seems all good to go, but it's a bit longer than the old.



Before I file the tip off the new extractor to near the same size as the old, is there anything I should be concerned about? I'm figuring the extractor I received is a match for a newer gun, and that extra length had a role, but not for this older gun.



I heard the caution about filing carefully, and I wonder if there's something I should be checking for as I bring it down to the size of the old one.



It's not really visible in the photo, but I think the extra tip on the new extractor has to go, as it's the first to hit when bringing the breech block forward.



Also, I'm curious what the two holes in the extractor are for. Should I drill the new one in the same way? Do the holes have a function?

Thank you for the continuing advice here.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:43 PM
WalnutBill22
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2014
Location: 
Jackson, TN
Posts: 
1,399
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I'm not totally sure, but I think the holes are primarily there in case of a blown case rim. A secondary role for the forward hole might be to check to see if there is a chambered round, but you would probably need good light and good eyes to tell. The holes are probably not necessary, but blown cases do still occur (fortunately rarely), so if you have a drill press and a good way to measure and hold the new extractor, it wouldn't be bad idea. Of course you would need a high speed drill bit.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:46 AM
Yeoman

Join Date: 
Apr 2020
Posts: 
9
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thank you for responding. I do have the tools to drill, but because it's easy enough to remove the extractor, I think I'll start just by removing the triangular peak. Sounds like I won't be harming the function of the extractor by doing that.

A separate question, but this gun does have some movement at the joint where it breaks down. Just a bit, but it's noticeable. Is there a remedy for that?

Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-21-2020, 12:42 PM
pump .22s's Avatar
pump .22s
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2010
Location: 
Deep East Texas
Posts: 
12,065
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I think WalnutBill is correct....I'm thinking those are there for pressure relief in case of a rupture at the rim in that area. But I have replaced the originals with the ones that don't have holes and used them as is.

I have been able to tighten some of these up by taking a small hammer and peening around on the edge of the piece attached to the stock....where it slip into the receiver to thicken the edge somewhat and tighten things up. I have sold all my Model 12s except for one on loan to my mom, so I don't have one handy to refresh my memory. But it did work....there may better ways.

James
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-21-2020, 04:34 PM
Sav22

Join Date: 
Apr 2008
Posts: 
1,524
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pump .22s View Post
I think WalnutBill is correct.... James
I agree, there was an older gentleman locally who collected Remington 22 for years, he once showed me an early Model 12 he had just acquired and there were no holes in the extractor, he went on to explain that they found out a ruptured case could blow the extractor out of the guns, so they added a single vent hole, they then found out that was not enough and added a second. I've seen some examples on early guns with just the single hole. Back then the cases were softer copper, I don't think you have to worry that much about modern brass cases rupturing with standard velocity- has anyone had that happen recently?

The extractor should be fairly hard steel so you may have trouble drilling it.

The old gentleman also explained to me why the cases were copper in rimfires, with the primer in direct contact with the case the early mercury based primer material would attack brass but not hurt copper as much. The introduction of non-mercuric primer material opened the door for the use of brass cases and the introduction of Hi-Speed ammunition which need stronger cases. I have a copy of an old add somewhere that lists regular velocity (now referred to as standard velocity) as having copper cases and Hi-Speed having brass. I don't know where he got his information but it seems to make sense.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-21-2020, 06:30 PM
joe45c
US Air Force Veteran

Join Date: 
Mar 2014
Location: 
Peru,NY on the shores of lake champlain
Posts: 
676
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav22 View Post
I agree, there was an older gentleman locally who collected Remington 22 for years, he once showed me an early Model 12 he had just acquired and there were no holes in the extractor, he went on to explain that they found out a ruptured case could blow the extractor out of the guns, so they added a single vent hole, they then found out that was not enough and added a second. I've seen some examples on early guns with just the single hole. Back then the cases were softer copper, I don't think you have to worry that much about modern brass cases rupturing with standard velocity- has anyone had that happen recently?

The extractor should be fairly hard steel so you may have trouble drilling it.

The old gentleman also explained to me why the cases were copper in rimfires, with the primer in direct contact with the case the early mercury based primer material would attack brass but not hurt copper as much. The introduction of non-mercuric primer material opened the door for the use of brass cases and the introduction of Hi-Speed ammunition which need stronger cases. I have a copy of an old add somewhere that lists regular velocity (now referred to as standard velocity) as having copper cases and Hi-Speed having brass. I don't know where he got his information but it seems to make sense.
Sounds like that older gentleman knew his stuff!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x