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  #61  
Old 06-23-2018, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomizzou View Post
A dirty chamber has been mentioned in this thread. I don't believe that was the problem in this case, but just wondering what people do here to clean them. Do you use a .270 caliber brush to scrub them?
Yes that was ruled out. I have a .17 cal carbon fiber cleaning rod with copper brush, nylon brush, and jag. Use with hoppes #9 and hoppes oil. Also have Otis Ripcord One Pass Bore Cleaner that is good to bring to range.
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  #62  
Old 06-23-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by traffer View Post
OK shooter, the principal is still the same. They design the cases to withstand the pressures generated in the cartridge. What I was trying to get through is that the bolts are designed with the bottom open so that if there is a case failure the gasses will vent through a safer route than back into your face.
You OK with that?
In my experimenting with loading 22lr, the same principle is involved. Rimfire cases are all basically the same. 17HMR 22WMR and 22WSM have thicker cases but totally different than center fire. I figured on a forum named rimfire central that would be a given.
Obviously pressures for the much higher performing cartridges are higher. I figured that you folks would have known that also.
As far as laying into me for correcting "semantics", there is a difference between case failure and gun failing. That is all I meant to point out by offering the correction.
Either way a case failure or the gun failure it still was a blow up. So Savage included that as a feature? They should advertise that. "we blow off your digits not face.

Never assume people here are all rim fire experts. They are here to learn and share things. I know many great hunters that don't know much about how the shells are made etc. But they are good at hunting. I know people that use a microwave oven that do not have a clue as to how they work, same for cell phones and computers.

Fully enclosed it would not have blown down at all. The bullet shot out of the barrel still. Its like the case failed which then offered two exits of the gases. One was down to the hand the other was shooting the bullet out. It did both.

If fully enclosed it would have fired the bullet since the barrel was not obstructed.
The trigger would not have blown off the gun.

If the resistance of the bullet in the end of the shell is lower than the weakest link in the chamber its going to shoot the bullet. If I pre drilled a tiny hole in the rim then every shot fire would probably have some blow back towards the shooters hand but would still shoot the bullet.

I say it was a weak casing or rim but also poor bolt design for this type of failure.
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  #63  
Old 06-23-2018, 05:39 PM
Gomizzou
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Originally Posted by ShooterJ View Post
Yes that was ruled out. I have a .17 cal carbon fiber cleaning rod with copper brush, nylon brush, and jag. Use with hoppes #9 and hoppes oil. Also have Otis Ripcord One Pass Bore Cleaner that is good to bring to range.
No, I'm asking specifically how to clean the chamber. The 17 is based on .27 cal nail gun blank. I'm assuming a .270 brush would fit the chamber.
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  #64  
Old 06-23-2018, 06:16 PM
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After having a couple of my 22lr loads blow out on the bottom like that, I considered modifying the bolt face to cover the entire head of the cartridge. But I figured if all new guns are made like this, what is the point. I am however developing a case modification that would withstand perhaps 15 to 25% more pressure. I had not thought of doing that for 17wsm or 17hmr cartridges but it should work for them also.
My "guess" is that in your situation, that particular case was double loaded. I have not heard of factory ammo being double loaded but it sure looks like it from the results. That wasn't a little over pressure. that thing was waaaay over pressure.
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  #65  
Old 06-23-2018, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShooterJ View Post
Yes that was ruled out. I have a .17 cal carbon fiber cleaning rod with copper brush, nylon brush, and jag. Use with hoppes #9 and hoppes oil. Also have Otis Ripcord One Pass Bore Cleaner that is good to bring to range.
.17 brush doesn't clean the chamber.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomizzou View Post
No, I'm asking specifically how to clean the chamber. The 17 is based on .27 cal nail gun blank. I'm assuming a .270 brush would fit the chamber.
I'm not sure what size bronze brush I use but its a tight fit in the chamber and I twist it around by hand with a pistol cleaning rod while using a good cleaner. Its a habit I picked up with my 17HMR semi back in the semis' OOB/kaboom days.
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  #66  
Old 06-24-2018, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Gomizzou View Post
No, I'm asking specifically how to clean the chamber. The 17 is based on .27 cal nail gun blank. I'm assuming a .270 brush would fit the chamber.
Well the casing is much larger diameter than the actual bullet. So you need a rod that will fit the barrel not the chamber. That would be .17 cal. Anything larger will be way too tight trying to get patches through.

But yes for just the chamber that brush would probably work fine.
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  #67  
Old 06-24-2018, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by traffer View Post
After having a couple of my 22lr loads blow out on the bottom like that, I considered modifying the bolt face to cover the entire head of the cartridge. But I figured if all new guns are made like this, what is the point. I am however developing a case modification that would withstand perhaps 15 to 25% more pressure. I had not thought of doing that for 17wsm or 17hmr cartridges but it should work for them also.
My "guess" is that in your situation, that particular case was double loaded. I have not heard of factory ammo being double loaded but it sure looks like it from the results. That wasn't a little over pressure. that thing was waaaay over pressure.
Yes maybe it was loaded hot. I'm not sure how that is done though. In a rim fire is there some kind of primer that is put in the rim which then ignites the powder used?

It can only hold so much powder, is there dead space between the bullet and the power? If you over loaded it with power then the bullet would not fit. Unless the power was compressible.

I know center fires can have hot loads, a guy at our range was taken to the hospital after his chamber blew up in his face. My brother in law had a hand loader do his glock loads and his glock blew up in his hand.

I'm not sure how this happens. Do they over stuff it with gunpowder?
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  #68  
Old 06-24-2018, 12:35 AM
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Part of the problem is that brass work hardens, and the rim is going to have the most stresses put on it during manufacturing. I swear all of those fired cases seem to have a slight belting in where the rim hits the body.

I could have swore savage puts pressure relief holes in their rim fire guns.
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  #69  
Old 06-24-2018, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShooterJ View Post
Yes maybe it was loaded hot. I'm not sure how that is done though. In a rim fire is there some kind of primer that is put in the rim which then ignites the powder used?

It can only hold so much powder, is there dead space between the bullet and the power? If you over loaded it with power then the bullet would not fit. Unless the power was compressible.

I know center fires can have hot loads, a guy at our range was taken to the hospital after his chamber blew up in his face. My brother in law had a hand loader do his glock loads and his glock blew up in his hand.

I'm not sure how this happens. Do they over stuff it with gunpowder?
None of the different rimfire rounds I've dissected over the years are close to full of powder and some far from it including... 22, 17HMR, and 17WSM.
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  #70  
Old 06-24-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ShooterJ View Post
The blast would have gone out the end of the barrel if it were a different bolt.

Remember the barrel is the point of least resistance. In the case where the it blows out due to a weak rim the pressure wave has two exits one is the barrel the other is towards the shooters hand.

But if the bottom of the bolt is fully exposed it will offer very little resistance and it will blow down towards the shooters hand.

His hand did not take 100 percent of the blast the bullet still shot and hit the target 100 yards away.

A fully enclosed bolt in this scenario would have been superior to the open at the bottom design. Only if someone welded the end of the barrel shut would the open design be of benefit.
My point was that there are only 3 rimfire rifle actions that I know of that are fully enclosed, touching the entire rim, break action rifles, the Remington 5mm, and falling block rifles. There may be others but the vast majority of rimfire rifles can have a rim explosion in any direction, not just down. The open bottom rimfire bolt is for magazine feeding purposes as well as venting explosions down.

Last edited by Glass37; 06-24-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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  #71  
Old 06-24-2018, 04:37 PM
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The amount of powder in 22lr and 22wmr is just slightly less than half full. I would imagine it is similar in the 17s.
I loaded a 22lr full once...And that was the last time. Had to buy a new bolt for my Remington 514. 22lr holds 4.2 grains... 2.2 grains will drive a 40 grain bullet at near 1500fps. 2.5 grains will cause case failure in about half the rounds. 2.75 grain blows out every case.
I would imagine that a 17 WSM has about 2.7 grains of powder. Maybe 3 grains. The case would hold perhaps 6 to 7 grains.
Because of the weakness of rim fire cases, they are far touchier to reload than center fire.
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  #72  
Old 06-24-2018, 05:59 PM
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Just doing some reading on the 17wsm. Have not been on RFC for a fair bit.

I won't make any guesses on the rim rupture. Though I think the work hardening of the rim thoughts are in line.

I highly doubt it was a double charge. Anything is possible though.
Rimfire powder is way way off of what any available canister powders are available to the public.

I have not dissected a 17WSM yet. But why would a manufacturer make the case almost three times as big as a 22rf and then just use a few tenths more than a RF? Makes no sense in that thinking.
Bigger cases more often than not use a slower powder than a small case.
I won't go into pressure curves and burning rates. Lots more info at ones finger tips than years ago.
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  #73  
Old 06-24-2018, 07:12 PM
Glass37
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Originally Posted by traffer View Post
The amount of powder in 22lr and 22wmr is just slightly less than half full. I would imagine it is similar in the 17s.
I loaded a 22lr full once...And that was the last time. Had to buy a new bolt for my Remington 514. 22lr holds 4.2 grains... 2.2 grains will drive a 40 grain bullet at near 1500fps. 2.5 grains will cause case failure in about half the rounds. 2.75 grain blows out every case.
I would imagine that a 17 WSM has about 2.7 grains of powder. Maybe 3 grains. The case would hold perhaps 6 to 7 grains.
Because of the weakness of rim fire cases, they are far touchier to reload than center fire.
AE 20gr was weighed at 9.1gr of powder by B23
I just cut one open, lost a few flakes and weighed 8.9gr. Primer was also splashed in a streak up the case wall to 3/8" below the shoulder.

Last edited by Glass37; 06-24-2018 at 07:55 PM.
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  #74  
Old 06-24-2018, 07:54 PM
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Powder.... in a Federal/CCI 17HMR TNT 17grn bullet....weighed on average 5.5 grn.; with a fair bit of room for more as have all the various rf rounds I've dissected including the 17WSM.
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  #75  
Old 06-24-2018, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass37 View Post
AE 20gr was weighed at 9.1gr of powder by B23
I just cut one open, lost a few flakes and weighed 8.9gr. Primer was also splashed in a streak up the case wall to 3/8" below the shoulder.
Its been a few years since I did that so I don't exactly remember but if I recall, the 17 WSM's I pulled apart, when I did all that testing, had a pretty full case of powder.

I think some of you are wayyyyyyyyyy over thinking this and IMO it was nothing more than a case issue. It very easily could have been a tiny little section of brass that was a tick harder and when the rim was formed that harder piece of brass was just that tiny bit more brittle, that it created a flaw in the rim and it let loose when it fired.
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