Model 12 Cartridge misaligned going into chamber - Page 2 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #16  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:00 PM
Yeoman

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Much appreciate the knowledgeable advice here. At this point I won't drill.

Started with that extra length on the extractor.



It filed more easily than I expected, so I got to this point in three steps rather than taking it all off at once.



There's still some extra metal there, but it doesn't seem to affect the movement of the block.



It cycled fine with the dummy ammo, and I'll try with live ammo tomorrow to see how it lines up.

Thank you for the help.
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  #17  
Old 04-21-2020, 08:35 PM
pete379
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Model 12 cartridge misaligned

Yeoman, I'm kind of glad you didn't try my method of squeezing the extractor with a vice-grip and breaking it. It worked on my first Model 12, but I think I've found better methods. The Remington Field Service Manual for the 12 and 121 says to file the stop like I mentioned before, and that has worked on some. I've also taken a tiny piece of shim stock and put it in the front side of the hole where the knob on the extractor fits in to bring the extractor closer the bolt face. I have early and late model 12's and the three different extractors are represented in all of them. The holes(if they have them) aren't always drilled in the same place. Sometimes they are so close together that they form a figure eight. I think the one you got from Jack First with no holes will work just fine once you get it fitted. I found a really simple solution to tighten the haves of the gun up. I picked up a parts gun that was so loose it must have wiggled a quarter inch up and down. When I took the take-down screw out and compared it with a tight rifle, I noticed the tang on the trigger guard was bent down considerably-maybe someone dropped the gun or fell on it at some point. I put the tang in a padded vice and pulled on the stock to straighten it. I was surprised how easily it bends. Then I went back and tightened all my other rifles. I think using two people works best. Have one person hold a tape measure between the butt plate and something solid like a wall while you start bumping the stock with the heel of your hand. A tiny bend is all you need. Good luck. I hope you get that old girl working like a new one. Ben
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2020, 07:55 PM
Yeoman

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I appreciate the encouragement, Ben. Things didn't go as well this evening as I expected, so it's not sorted out yet.

The ammo I tried is here, left to right. Loaded five of the first ones (Aguila), and the fifth one didn't chamber correctly. It was skewed to the left, just like where I started on this thread. Loaded four more and they all fired fine.



Then I loaded five of the middle ones and they all fired fine. But then loaded three of the shorts and the third one was misaligned. When I slowly bring the pump forward to see how the first round is going to load, it looks pretty good. Not perfect, but it looks like it's going to work.

So I'll have to give some more thought to this, and maybe try the shim where the extractor seats in the hole to pull it back just a bit. Is there any chance the block itself (I hope I'm calling these by the right names) is working against me? This doesn't show the surfaces as well it could, but I could try to take better pictures tomorrow evening.



I'm an airgun collector, and some of my guns like certain pellets, and won't shoot accurately with others. Is that a characteristic that's tolerated with firearms? If so, then I'll just try a variety until I find the ones that work consistently.

Tweaking the tang may be what my gun needs to tighten the joint. It seems to me it's a roughly equal amount of movement up and down and side to side, but an adjustment there might be all it needs.

Thank you for the help.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:21 PM
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The extractor must grip the cartridge to the bolt face tightly enough so as to discourage misalignment. If the cartridge droops, this indicates a loose fit and more opportunity for misalignment. I recall that the last one of these I worked on required going through two new extractors before I found one that worked....and that maybe after some tweaking.

Don't do anything to the bolt (what you are calling the block?). This issue can be fixed with the right extractor geometry. Not all the new extractors (or old ones off another gun) will work on your gun. Be patient and keep fiddling with it. And if the CCI Standard Velocity works consistently and reliably, I might call it a day...that's good ammo as a general rule and superior to the short ammo for most any application. I never liked firing shorts in my mine anyway. And different brands have different thickness of rims which in turn will affect how tightly the extractor grips the cartridge to the bolt face - so in guns that function marginally in that respect, some ammo may work well while others may not.

Good luck,

James

Last edited by pump .22s; 04-22-2020 at 08:25 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2020, 07:44 AM
tickridger
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Note this carefully. It is right on.

John
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  #21  
Old 04-25-2020, 04:23 PM
PinkVapor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete379 View Post
Yeoman, another fix that often works is to file the bottom of the extractor where it hits the stop on the bolt to allow it to move in a little more. BTW, Model 12's made in 1911 should be between SN 55105 and 104041.
This is what I was looking for! I've one dated 9999* and haven't been able to find date info. It's the first gun I shot and my grandfather taught me to shoot at 7 years old. Where would this info be found?
Thanks!
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  #22  
Old 05-06-2020, 07:46 PM
Yeoman

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Another update on the Model 12. I've taken James' advice to heart and have been fiddling, mostly with a small file.

To try to change the geometry I've removed a few thousandths from the inner part of the extractor, to try to allow the part that grips the rim of the cartridge to turn inward toward the center of the gun.



Not sure if it's cause and effect from my filing, but the Aguila LR cartridges with the shorter bullet jam due to misalignment about 1 or 2 times out of 5. Frustrating. The CCI LR didn't jam at all with two groups of 5. But -- and I realize this is a whole different topic -- the Aquilas are tolerably accurate, and for some reason the CCIs are wild. The difference is along the lines of 3/4" groups vs. 3" groups at 33 feet. Crazy. But my view is that's for another time.

And as long as I'm off topic, I just noticed tonight the dual slits in the top part of the feed tube near the muzzle end. I should be able to figure out what they're for, but it hasn't come to me yet.




I still want to solve the misalignment problem, and I'm enjoying the process, but I wonder if it's common knowledge that some guns are just meant to be retired.

Thank you for the ongoing advice.
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2020, 07:52 PM
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Sounds like you've gotten a bad batch of CCI SV. This has been my go-to ammo for plinking and pests/small game for years. And it almost always is about the most accurate of the modest priced ammo in most guns I try it in.

The slits allows that narrow section between to be bent slightly inward to provide friction against the inner magazine tube to help hold it in place when reloading....if I am recalling correctly.
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2020, 07:54 PM
pete379
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The dual slits make the area between them a spring of sorts. It should be bent in slightly so the mag tube remains where you put it when loading.
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2020, 08:01 PM
pete379
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Pink Vapor, I get my S/N info from John and Roy's now out of print book on Remington .22 rimfire rifles. 9999 would 1911. The book is copyrighted, so I can't just send you a picture of the page.
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