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  #31  
Old 10-10-2015, 06:30 PM
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IPSC, I've never broke a Challenger, or any Belgium Browining pistol firing pin, so I've never had to change one. My new (used) Intl. Medalist didn't come with the firing pin, spring or retaining pin so I'm going to have to get new parts. I did find a complete slide on ebay recently for a little of $12 plus shipping. Not bad timing.
I will check on those pins.

Thanks,
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2015, 07:47 PM
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M2HB.... for this house fire gun project, I will try to use the original slide but must get that pin in-place. But just in-case I have problems with the pin or even if I have other problems with the slide in general....I also found a spare slide with firing pin installed ( but less extractor) for $20....so I have that slide all prepped too, just in case.

If you need one of these 3mm Spirol pins, shoot me a PM and give me your address....I'll send you one.

Last edited by IPSC; 10-10-2015 at 08:43 PM.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2015, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by IPSC View Post
M2HB.... for this house fire gun projet, I will try to use the original slide but must get that pin in-place. But just in-case I have problems with the pin or even if I have other problems with the slide in general....I also found a spare slide with firing pin installed ( but less extractor) for $20....so I have that slide all prepped too, just in case.

If you need one of these 3mm Spirol pins, shoot me a PM and give me your address....I'll send you one.
I appreciate the offer. I'm going to try to get a few from them. I like the concept better than staking the retaining pin.

As far as your "fire" pistol, I don't think anything metal has been ruined from the fire. When doing the nitride process, they heat the metal up to around 800-1000 degrees anyways and it doesn't hurt the metal. If you really were concerned, I would do the nitride process and it will be better than new. The advantage to "nitride" is that it is a hardening process, not a coating. I do think the "brushed hard chrome" would look awesome on your pistol. It is one of my favorite finishes.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2015, 08:39 PM
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I also think that the house fire gun may be OK as to metal strength after the fire.....but at the same time, I'm not taking foolish chances and will string-fire the gun for its first couple of magazine loads. Maybe quite a few times before I get real comfortable with it.

Here's something to wrap your head around. What about the heat affect to the local metal in the barrel, JUST AHEAD of the chamber, when a round lights off? Here we find many thousands of degrees of temperature in that moment when the bullet exits the case. Sure there will be long-term throat erosion and such....but nothing like catastrophic failure. In the end, I think we'll be OK....

I'm tight with a local industrial chrome plater, who will give me a good price for the process....and I've had other outfits industrial hard chrome other guns of mine, so I am familiar with the goodness of that process. OTOH, I looked into black nitriding, and even if I send a handful of already-disassembled parts to reduce the cost, I couldn't find a price under $200 for the process.....much more than I paid for this particular gun. In this instance, when I am still unsure of the end-result metal strength of the gun (until I test it afterwards)....I'm going hard chrome. For what it's worth, the industrial hard chrome process is done at 136 degrees F, and produces a very hard surface, almost file-like.


.

Last edited by IPSC; 10-10-2015 at 08:47 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2015, 08:55 PM
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Great job !
Can't belive it's the same pistol.
Im glad I was able to plate that trigger for you today. And had fun talking to a kindered spirit.
Keep up the great work.

Dave
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  #36  
Old 10-10-2015, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IPSC View Post
I also think that the house fire gun may be OK as to metal strength after the fire.....but at the same time, I'm not taking foolish chances and will string-fire the gun for its first couple of magazine loads. Maybe quite a few times before I get real comfortable with it.

Here's something to wrap your head around. What about the heat affect to the local metal in the barrel, JUST AHEAD of the chamber, when a round lights off? Here we find many thousands of degrees of temperature in that moment when the bullet exits the case. Sure there will be long-term throat erosion and such....but nothing like catastrophic failure. In the end, I think we'll be OK....

I'm tight with a local industrial chrome plater, who will give me a good price for the process....and I've had other outfits industrial hard chrome other guns of mine, so I am familiar with the goodness of that process. OTOH, I looked into black nitriding, and even if I send a handful of already-disassembled parts to reduce the cost, I couldn't find a price under $200 for the process.....much more than I paid for this particular gun. In this instance, when I am still unsure of the end-result metal strength of the gun (until I test it afterwards)....I'm going hard chrome. For what it's worth, the industrial hard chrome process is done at 136 degrees F, and produces a very hard surface, almost file-like.


.
I had one of my Challenger pistols hard chromed many years ago. It gets shot more than all my other firearms combined. It is an awesome finish. I'm lucky that a friend of mine has thousands of barrels, and parts nitride treated every year. I will put my parts in with his and he will charge me what they charge him. I can assure you it will be cheap. They really hit you hard on the price for small orders.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2015, 09:13 PM
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Hey Mapleleaf.... what a small world ! I meet you for the first time today at the Jewelry store (when you plated/burnished my gold trigger), and now you comment on this thread. Thank you for the kind words and I also had a great time chatting guns with you while at the store. Imagine finding a jewelry guy who is "into" guns.... I'm sure there aren't that many.
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  #38  
Old 10-10-2015, 09:50 PM
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All this talk about slides, firing pins and roll pins prompted me to have a look in the parts bin. It looks like someone didn't want to mess with ths stepped hole.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Old Slides.jpg (493.3 KB, 23 views)
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2015, 10:07 PM
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This is only one of a very few areas where I think Browning missed the boat. Staking is always a "semi-permament" process to use, and is not conducive to frequent parts replacement. Browning's own model 1911 is pure bliss in comparison, in changing the firing pin (extractor too).

Anyway, Chim, if you're reading this.... we should ask, "Why didn't Browning simply invert the locations of the 1/16" and 1/8" (actually 3mm) holes?" With the fat hole on top, there is "no-way" for the retaining pin to fall down into the working guts of the gun inadvertently, and at the same time, we can still proceed with the 1/16" punch-process to remove the pin (but this time pushing toward the top), and there would be no need to peen the "upper" 1/8" pin, as the pin cannot inadvertently fall "up" against the sight tang. I would have designed it that way... but I guess Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. I couldn't design a whole gun.

.

Last edited by IPSC; 10-11-2015 at 09:36 AM.
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  #40  
Old 10-10-2015, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by IPSC View Post
This is only one of a very few areas where I think Browning missed the boat. Staking is always a "semi-permament" process to use, and is not conducive to frequent parts replacement. Browning's own model 1911 is pure bliss in comparison, in changing the firing pin (extractor too).

Anyway, Chim, if you're reading this.... we should ask, "Why didn't Browning simply invert the locations of the 1/16" and 1/8" ( actually 3mm) holes?" With the fat hole on top, there is "no-way" for the retaining pin to fall down into the working guts of the gun inadvertently, and at the same time, we can still proceed with the 1/16" punch-process to remove the pin ( but this time pushing toward the top), and there would be no need to peen the "upper" 1/8" pin, as the pin cannot inadvertently fall "up" against the sight tang. I would have designed it that way... but I guess Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. I couldn't design a whole gun.

.
You are correct on their engineering failure.

I'm looking forward in seeing the results of the spiral pins.

I would really like to see a "sticky" that covers all the parts from BuckMarks that fit, to suppliers for Belgium Browning pistols. It sure would make life easier in this forum. A one stop shop for us Belgium pistol enthusiasts.
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  #41  
Old 10-10-2015, 10:40 PM
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Let me tell ya M2HB.... if you have never removed or put a firing pin back into a Belgian Nomad/Challenger/Medalist.... it will try your patience.

The retaining pin for the firing pin is installed and removed from the bottom/inside of the slide. The retaining pin diameter is about 1/8" ( 0.125")...but really is closer to 3mm ( 0.119"). It is a solid pin for 1962-era guns....and seems to be a roll-pin for later guns. The pin is only about 0.314" to 0.344" long ( check dimensions).

You get this roll-pin out by using a 1/16" rod from the TOP of the slide, and punch "down" on the EDGE of the fatter roll-pin directly below. (The roll pin fits in a stepped-channel.....about 0.119" diameter from below for a short distance, then, it steps-down to be the smaller, 1/16" hole towards the top). If for ANY reason you bugger-up the edge of the roll pin, you will have a H#ll of a time getting this roll pin out !. To make it worse, the roll pin is "peened" in-place, so it won't drop down into the gun if it comes loose. Some guns have a peen mark on one side of the hole on the bottom of the slide.....others have 2 peen marks on opposite sides of the hole. You have to drill-out the "peen" material in order for the retaining pin to be removed downwards.

Because I'm in the same boat with this rebuild of the Challenger, I will NOT use a normal roll-pin with one length-wise split. I will use a SPIROL roll pin, and avoid having to re-peen my pin into place.

Here is a blurb on SPIROL....it has a cinnamon-roll build acrhictecture, with a continuous "roll" of the metal without a longitudinal split. Holds tight without further peening required.

http://www.spirol.com/mkt/rs1.php?search=2

SPIROL offers the potential customer a free sample bag to try. If you contact them, ask for the 3mm pin that is at least 0.314" long ( at least 8mm long). If you can't get them, I've got a few extra. Shoot me a note with your address and I'll send you one.
I've never been much of a fan of "spring roll pins" used for gun parts, or any hollow pin that has a slit running its full length. I am currently working on a fix. Would you be willing to try a prototype pin, or two?
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2015, 10:54 PM
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I think any good solution that doesn't require reworking a slide is really in need. Some pistols have significant value and many folks won't want to modify them. I can't wait to see your solution.

As IPSC stated, if the hole would have been drilled 180 degrees different, there wouldn't be much of an issue.
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  #43  
Old 10-11-2015, 08:14 AM
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Good point IPSC. With that approach it wouldn't be much of a problem.
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  #44  
Old 10-11-2015, 08:17 AM
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@SGWGunsmih..... I would be interested in hearing your views first of why you think the spiral roll pins are unsuitable for gun service. If you look at Spirol's published technical papers on the pins, you will find all sorts of similar industrially-rated applications where they work; some applications involve high vibration. They even make "light duty"...."regular duty"...and "heavy-duty" versions of the pins, of course with pros/cons for each. One can't automatically go for the "heavy-duty" versions without looking at other aspects that are involved. The ones I have received as samples are "regular" duty and seem they will perform just fine for our applications. Or maybe I simply mis-understood you where you don't like normal roll pins with a length-wise split. If that's what you meant... I agree.

Here is more literature on Spirol before we move away from them too quickly. I would suggest a careful review of the features--->

http://www.spirol.com/library/main_c...s.pdf?sm=96993

In the meantime, being ever-open to new ideas, I would like to hear your views why they aren't suitable ( if that's what you meant)..... and also hear what alternate you may have in-mind. Hopefully this is taken in the proper spirit of learnings and continuous improvement potential.

Also, just for clarity.... the later Belgian guns use a length-wise split roll pin, but of course combined with a peened-edge. The earliest versions (1962 only?), a solid pin was used.

.

Last edited by IPSC; 01-21-2018 at 03:19 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2015, 09:35 AM
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Hey Chim.... I notice your picture of the modified slide with interest. Did you just now uncover this detail that went un-noticed amongst your stash of parts? I can see this mod being done 2 ways.

1.) The guy drilled the upper portion of the stepped-hole to result in the same diameter all the way down...and used a long(er) split pin, probably 1/8" diameter all the way. ..... or .......

2.) The guy drilled the upper 1/16" section wider to 1/8" or so....and the split pin he put in-place was half-length, the same length as the original 1/16" hole. Then used an upper and lower 1/8" pin. Why do that?.....it seems the "hole" inside the upper pin is also about 1/16" and therefore retains the concept of the original design better.

I really don't think option 2.) makes any real sense....but thought to ask.

By the way.....how well does this hold up, in terms of the pin falling out at the wrong time? Do you shoot it enough to know? Thanks.

.

Last edited by IPSC; 10-11-2015 at 09:39 AM.
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