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  #61  
Old 06-17-2010, 01:49 PM
ShootsAtSky
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Adding notes on a 6D and a Sears clone 187 series A


Manufacturer Model: Savage Model 6D
Factory roll stamp: Savage Arms Corporation/ Chicopee Falls Mass. USA/.22 short, long or long rifle/ Model 6D
Barrel: 19.5 inch (hacksaw’d by PO). Only long rifle as automatic/ Inspection stamp (56) O
Bumper: Spring type
Patents: 2094577, 224758, 2223093, RE22585, 2271576 Upside down
Reciever and sights: Front sight missing (I cut a new dovetail and replaced with plastic, looking for good replacement), rear standard ramp, grooved receiver, no peep or mount holes, one piece clip-on extractor, flat metal plug, gills 8 left, 1 right
Charging handle: Small 3/8ths inch hour glass shape
Trigger: Long mechanism, blued trigger
Lifter: Thin bird beak with coil spring, holes for spring ends
Stock: Walnut, Monte Carlo, wide forearm, no checkering, had been refinished by PO
Trigger guard: Cast steel, inletted
Magazine: Tube, cartridge shaped loading port
Scope: Bushnell Sportview 4x15

Not sure this one belongs in the database, but it has gills and came from Springfield/Stevens, so here it is.
Manufacturer Model: Sears 2200 (Stevens Model 80 Series A/ Springfield Model 187 Series A)
Factory roll stamp: Semi Automatic .22 Cal LR Only/ Sears Roebuck and Co. No 101.548880 Made in USA
Barrel: 19.5 inch (factory), Inspection stamp (B4) J
(The B is 1950, which matches the Sears catalog date of 50-51)
Bumper: Flat spring, bent in a long narrow V. No solid block or coil spring
Patents: None
Receiver and sights: Front and rear standard, no bead, grooved receiver, no peep or mount holes, two standard extractors, tapered plastic plug, gills 2 left, 1 right. It has a SN D4838XX.
Charging handle: Original was square, curved plastic, now small 3/8ths hour glass (thanks rsv1mos!)
Trigger: Long mechanism, with blued extended trigger
Lifter: Thin bird beak with coil spring and slots, not holes for spring ends
Stock: Birch thin streamlined design, pressed checkering, brown poly finish. Might not be original, receiver did not fit inletting, set a full 1/8 inch above the flats and charging handle relief cuts.
Trigger guard: Molded plastic, no inlet
Magazine: Tube with long curved extension into lifter, cartridge shaped loading port, aluminum inner tube.
Safety: Side mount, not in the extended plug.
Scope: Bushnell ScopeChief 22 4x20


Top in each pic is the 6D, bottom is the Sears 2200/Springfield 187 Series A/Stevens 80 Series A

I tried to keep the front edge of the receivers lined up as a reference point.







Hope this helps more than confuses!

Bob
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  #62  
Old 06-17-2010, 02:05 PM
OldGunbunny
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Shoots,
I'd argue the newer Sears rifle does belong - it's using the one of the lifter/trigger mechanism combinations we're investigating.
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  #63  
Old 06-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Hud105
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Agreed!!
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  #64  
Old 06-17-2010, 02:54 PM
ShootsAtSky
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I kind of thought so, the lifter looks just like rsv1mos's 6DL.

I just realized that it does have a missing feature though. It doesn't have the forward bolt lock hole, only a single hole on the left side to lock the bolt to the rear. Guess Sears didn't want a single shot / semi-auto and had them drop the single shot hole.

Been making some measurements and I suspect that the long curved feed was to fix the problem we've seen of dropping rounds under the lift gate if it wears just a little bit. The curved feed holds the next round about an eighth inch higher (closer to the barrel) than the straight feed does. You do loose one round in the tube, since they went to a two inch long thin plastic follower instead of the 1 inch metal follower. Probably had to with the bend in the feed tube.

The flat spring bumper was probably a dollar decision, it should be cheaper than the lever and spring and much easier to install.

Added: While i had the Sears clone out of the stock, I did notice that the gills really seem to work. There's unfinished white wood where I've been working on the inletting, and it's blackened at the first gill on both sides, but almost nothing at the second gill on the left or the ejection port on the right. Guess it just wasn't that important when everyone changed to smokeless and less greasy ammo.

Bob

Last edited by ShootsAtSky; 06-17-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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  #65  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:31 PM
rsv1mos
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Yes, I would add a third 'up to the Sear's 2200/Stevens 80, it sure does belong. Only problem (for me) is - it's not C&R qualified - (yet), so they would be pawn shop buys for me. I have given up paying transfer fees for internet buys.

Nice layout too, great action pictures. Thanks for taking the time.
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  #66  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:43 PM
ring3
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Hi all. Vacationing with the family at Myrtle Beach this week. Internet access is hit and miss and very frustrating. Never thought I would miss Comcast high speed. I will add info from my 6a when I return. Do remember that mine was made in Chicopee Falls. Found one on-line stamped 6A made in Utica. Looks very similar to mine. Would post link but I know how some disapprove of posting live auctions. Great thread, looking forward to whatever conclusions are reached.

Rob
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  #67  
Old 06-17-2010, 04:20 PM
ShootsAtSky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsv1mos View Post
Yes, I would add a third 'up to the Sear's 2200/Stevens 80, it sure does belong. Only problem (for me) is - it's not C&R qualified - (yet), so they would be pawn shop buys for me. I have given up paying transfer fees for internet buys.

Nice layout too, great action pictures. Thanks for taking the time.
Next year! It did come from a pawn shop, he had three old 22s that hadn't moved, bundled them for $120.

Bob
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  #68  
Old 06-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Hud105
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SAS,
Thanks for posting the info. on the rifles.
Very nice ones at that & great pics.

Ring3,
Enjoy your vacation. No hurry on the info.
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  #69  
Old 06-17-2010, 07:44 PM
rsv1mos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ring3 View Post
Hi all. Vacationing with the family at Myrtle Beach this week. Internet access is hit and miss and very frustrating. Never thought I would miss Comcast high speed. I will add info from my 6a when I return. Do remember that mine was made in Chicopee Falls. Found one on-line stamped 6A made in Utica. Looks very similar to mine. Would post link but I know how some disapprove of posting live auctions. Great thread, looking forward to whatever conclusions are reached.

Rob
Myrtle Beach, wife and I married there 54 years ago last week. Beautiful place.
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  #70  
Old 06-17-2010, 08:44 PM
Hud105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technical Dir. View Post
Hi Hud105,

I made a minor revision to post #51 regarding the trigger assembly to my 87A.

Thanks Technical Dir.
Thanks for the update. I was kind of wondering about that; it stuck out like a sore thumb in the DB. All better now.
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  #71  
Old 06-19-2010, 09:33 PM
Hud105
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This thread has now run for a whole week and we have amassed information on a whopping twenty-four rifles. Not a large number, but of a sufficient number to see trends in the evolution of these guns.

As everyone posted their information, I entered into the spreadsheet based on the number of patents and everything (for the most part) fell right into place.

We had ten guns manufactured at Utica. Eight with the single 2094577 patent, wire lifters and short trigger assemblies, with the exception of Sav22s’ short only 602 with a solid lifter and long trigger and his 7S with a long trigger and magazine fed.
Two guns from Utica had the two patents (probably the change to the solid lifter): Sav22s’ 6A and Justibms’ Sears Ranger 101.16. I know that the store brands have no factory marking, but by the patents, most of the early ones fell in with the Utica guns with their wire lifters.
The early 6’s had no gills. Gills on store brands was kind of hit & miss.
It appears that early Utica factory branded rifles had stocks of checkered walnut and the store brands plain birch. Out of the 24, there were only two Tenite stocks, both probably from Chicopee.
All guns from Utica were either Savage or store brand.

We had thirteen guns manufactured at Chicopee Falls starting with the 87As, Sav22s with a single patent and Mr. Picks with two patents. The rest all had all five patents and long triggers with solid lifters.
Somewhere in the middle of these, the charging handles changed from the large ¾” grooved or flat to a smaller ½’ ribbed one and toward the end of the Chicopee guns there was a 3/8” hour glass handle on ShootsAtSky’s Savage 6D.
All these guns had 8 gills (openings) on the left and 1 on the right.
I included Fixerupper’s J.C. Higgins101.16 in this group because from what I can find, the Higgins brand was used from the late ‘40’s to the early ‘60’s, although if it was a late manufacture, it could have been a Westfield gun.
Also in this group is ShootsAtSky’s Sears 2000, Cat. No. 101.548880 (Springfield 187A) with a 19 ½” barrel. This rifle is interesting in the fact that it has a grooved receiver, which some of us believed did not occur until around 1954.
According to ShootsAtSky’s information, the barrel is stamped with a B4 corresponding to 1950 and confirmed by the ‘50-‘51 catalog.
Last, but not least is rsv1mos’ Savage 6DL as a Westfield gun with a 20” barrel.
These last two guns have only 2 gills on the left & 1 on the right.

One thing to remember is that these guns were produced over quite a long period in many variations including factory upgrades, and many parts will exchange between different models, so some may have been de-flowered during their long lives and less than original (as rsv1mos has found) .

Changes or additions are welcomed.

Anyone who is interested in the spreadsheet that can open 2003 Excel, PM me with your email add and I will send you back an email with the file attached.

Regards, Hud

Edit to add:
Pevious posts from another thread:
rsv1mos


This kind of went over like a lead ballon when I first posted it, but I'm persistent.

Background

Joshua Stevens started J. Stevens & Co. in 1864.

Arthur Savage started the Savage Arm’s company in 1893.

Savage bought out Stevens in April 1920 and continued the Stevens brand.

“Springfield” rifles were made by Stevens in the Stevens Arms factory.

Evolution of the Stevens .22 caliber Automatic rifle in chronological order: (sort of)

Model 57 - Introduced in 1938 box magazine and “Buckhorn” fore stock
Model 057 - Same as model 57 but peep sight equipped

Model 76 - Introduced 1938 tube magazine, lubricated bullets, walnut stock w/hard rubber butt plate
Model 076 - Same as 76 but peep sight equipped

Model 87 - Introduced in 1938 same as model 76 but no walnut stock or buckhorn, change to steel buttplate
Model 087 - Same as 87 but peep sight equipped.

Model 872 - Introduced in 1940 marked Springfield .22 caliber short only.

Model 85 - Introduced in 1939 marked Springfield. Cheaper version of the Stevens model 87
Model 085 - Same as 85 but box magazine equipped


Evolution of the Savage .22 caliber Automatic rifle

Model 6 - Introduced in 1938 and discontinued in 1968. Used the same basic action as used in the Stevens model 87.
Model 6S - Same as model 6 but peep sight equipped.
Model 6D - Deluxe version of the model 6 with a walnut Monte Carlo stock
Model 6DL - Later version of the model 6D
Model 602 - Short only version of model 6 - Introduced 1940 discontinued 1946.
Model 7 - Box magazine model of the model 6. Introduced in 1939 Discontinued in 1947
Model 7S - Same as model 7 except equipped with a peep sight.

Early models used the large round knurled “pie plate” charging handle????
Year 1948? Changed to smaller ribbed charging handle??????
Year ________ Changed to “single clip-on extractors?????
Year 1940 Changed to different style lifter??????????
Other changes????????????????

Department store variations - Belknap, Coast to Coast, Gamble, Wards (Western Field), Sears (Ranger/JC Higgins) J.C. Penny, Cotter & Co., C.I.L., & Western Auto (Revelation).

Savage models used Walnut stocks exclusively, Springfield/Stevens and department store rifles used stained birch and possibly maple?????

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I updated a bit to include the box magazine fed model 7 and 7S and the short only model 602. Other changes and updates welcomed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by rsv1mos; 06-12-2010 at 12:16 PM.



Hud105


Factories:
Accroding to Kaintuck's excelent post in an above stickied thread:


Quote:
Marks on barrels may help too in the manufacture date~Utica NY until 1947, Chicopee Falls until 1960, Westfield after that.

Patents:
From research by various posters to these threads:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2223093Release Mechanism (Long)( same as RE22585, post '45)

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2224758 Release Mechanism (Short, solid lifter)

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2271576 Feed Mechanism

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2289621 Feed Mechanism (wire lifter)

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2290156 Gills

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2296242 Firearm

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=2320403 Feed Mechanism

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...BAJ&dq=RE22585 Re-issue of 2223093 post 1945 guns

There are more patents listed here than will be found on these rifles as many overlap in their design.

Stocks:

Sav22 states:

Quote:
In the 1948 catalog the description also state a "checkered stock"(Walnut) . The 1948 catalog was 'new', for 1947 they just added an updated price list to their catalog No.72, it also will be found with a 1942 dated list. From the catalogs the checkered stocks seem to have ended by about 1949.

My Springfield 87A is post '45 (RE pat) & sports a checkered Walnut stock.

Of course, any logic in all of this could have gone right out the window when it comes to the store branded clones, as the factory would have probably provided any features the stores were willing to pay for.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Hud105; 06-12-2010 at 01:51 PM.

Last edited by Hud105; 10-21-2010 at 07:58 PM.
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  #72  
Old 06-20-2010, 10:01 AM
rsv1mos
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So can we generally say:

1938/'39 - Gill-less, short trigger assembly, large 3/4" bolt handle.
1940/'50 - Eight gill's, long trigger assy, Large 3/4" bolt handle.
1950/?? - Two gills, long trigger assy, medium 1/2" bolt handle, Streamlined plug.
195?/?? - Two gills, "super" long trigger assy (SAS 2000 AKA Stevens 187) grooved, small bolt handle, streamllined plug.

Please correct the dates and question marks.

Seems most Savage stocks were walnut and Stevens & Dept. store rifles were birch.???

Can you convert to a PDF format?
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  #73  
Old 06-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Hud105
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Quote:
1938/'39 - Gill-less, short trigger assembly, large 3/4" bolt handle.
No gills: 6's(no letter) & early Rangers (.11 & .13)
Quote:
1940/'50 - Eight gill's, long trigger assy, Large 3/4" bolt handle.
Appears that the change to the long trigger & solid lifter occured at Utica with the two patent guns & the # of gills increased around the same time. (6A's & Ranger .16)
All the Utica guns were Savage or store brands.
Quote:
195?/?? - Two gills, "super" long trigger assy (SAS 2000 AKA Stevens 187) grooved, small bolt handle, streamllined plug.
According to the info. that SAS provided, his gun dates to 1950 by the B4 barrel code & the '50-'51 catalog, which would make it a Chicopee gun.
All the Chicopee guns were Springfield, Stevens (starting with the 87A's), or store brand, with the exception of SAS' Savage 6D.
Quote:
1950/?? - Two gills, long trigger assy, medium 1/2" bolt handle, Streamlined plug.
Your 6DL is the only confirmed Westfield gun, making it post '60, if the factory move dates are correct.
Quote:
Seems most Savage stocks were walnut and Stevens & Dept. store rifles were birch.???
Correct.
According to a post (somewhere) by Sav22, factory branded guns with walnut stocks ended sometime in'49.


Putting solid dates on some of these is purely speculation.

Sorry, I can't do the pdf thing. SAS tried to talk me through how to post the spreadsheet, but being a member of the illeteratti I am having trouble doing so. I will graciously ask him if he would do that for the common good.
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  #74  
Old 06-20-2010, 01:05 PM
Bimmer

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud105 View Post
Appears that the change to the long trigger & solid lifter occured at Utica with the two patent guns & the # of gills increased around the same time. (6A's & Ranger .16)
All the Utica guns were Savage or store brands.
It appears that the switch was not a clean one, as my 101.16 has the long trigger, solid lifter, 8 & 1 gill arrangement and a single patent. It is of course quite possible that newer receivers were mated to barrels marked prior to the change during the transition period.
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  #75  
Old 06-20-2010, 01:32 PM
Hud105
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud105
Appears that the change to the long trigger & solid lifter occured at Utica with the two patent guns & the # of gills increased around the same time. (6A's & Ranger .16)
All the Utica guns were Savage or store brands.
Bimmer:
It appears that the switch was not a clean one, as my 101.16 has the long trigger, solid lifter, 8 & 1 gill arrangement and a single patent. It is of course quite possible that newer receivers were mated to barrels marked prior to the change during the transition period.
If you think that's weird, there are two Chicopee guns, one with a single patent & one with two patents that both have long triggers & solid lifters...go figure .
I tend to think that there was a transitional period between these changes during which there was an overlap in features.

This is not an easy task as there are many unexplainable incongruities, some of which we may never resolve.
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