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  #1  
Old 01-02-2019, 08:58 AM
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Stocks (10/22) and Cheek Weld/Sight Alignment



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First, let me preface with this: "This is not meant to be confrontational"

In my opinion, and many others....the stock or even many aftermarket Ruger 10/22 stocks are not "ideal" for 3 position shooting, of which Appleseed (AS) is (3 position shooting).

Why?

Because they do not allow for a solid cheek weld, with no head movement. I am talking about "immediate" sight alignment with the cheek weld here. On a typical 10/22 sporter stock, one will need to use their grip thumb, or something similar to use as a point of reference for any sort of decent cheek weld with a somewhat immediate sight alignment. I ALWAYS need to adjust/fuss with it some.

Conversely, a stock that has a cheek riser incorporated at the correct height for the cheek weld, will typically result in a SOLID and repeatable cheek weld with the sights already aligned (assuming all else with the position is correct).

One look at the Olympic 3 position rifles, or biathalon rifles ought to solidify the point I am attempting to make here.

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT stating that a standard sporter stock is inadequate for AS shooting, and one could absolutely score a perfect 250 with a standard sporter stock. One could also likely earn a perfect score (doubtful...but likely could) on the CMP Rimfire Sporter targets as well with a sporter stock. But is it ideal?

No...a resounding no.

AS targets are very generous in size....when compared to other disciplines, and I have stated this before....one can absolutely earn Rifleman and do even better than 210 "muscling the rifle"....I have done it, and know others that have as well.

But "muscling" the rifle is bad....it means that your NPA is off and you are not relaxed into the position right?

Then how can one score so well on the AS AQT when muscling?

Here is why....RECOIL on the .22 rimfire is almost insignificant. You will not be tossed out of position as much with a rimfire as you will with a centerfire.

A reference to the AR15 here...one of the older "as issued" rifles with an A1 or A2 stock, and iron sights. That stock is just about perfect for shooting 3 position with irons, because its cheek riser (non existent) is straight and at an almost perfect height when using a nose to charging handle cheek weld, which puts the shooters eyeball about ~1 inch from the rear peep.

Same with the M1 Garand.....the shooters thumb wraps the heel of the receiver and the rear sight is almost perfect height for instant sight alignment.

Many AS instructors build up the stock on the standard 10/22 with a pool noodle or similar stuff. That works as well.

Add a scope to the 10/22 with a sporter stock and things go south even further. One almost needs the pool noodle solution when using a scope because the center of the crosshairs are significantly higher than the center of a tech sight rear peep.

Again, not being confrontational, "run what you brung".

But, if at some point you want to build that perfect position and are currently using a sporter stock....you may wish to build up the cheek riser, or....invest in a different stock more suited to 3 position shooting. Or.....if you simply want to improve your scores, and have possibly plateau'd with your current sporter stock, a different stock (or one built up) will likely lead to a better score.

For the final comment from me on this, unless there are any questions.....In NRA High Power, when we swapped to scopes on our AR15's the ideal height from the base of the picattiny rail to the center of the scope was found to be at exactly 1.300". That is why one of the best scope mounts sold for us, the Giessele National Match scope mount....is set to place the center of the optic at exactly 1.300". That height places the shooters eyeball at center with the center of the optic using a nose to charging handle cheek weld. That is someting to consider as well. This just simply makes sense......and is what the best shooters in the nation have found to work.

R/
Chris
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Old 01-02-2019, 09:03 AM
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An example of a cheap costing stock that works VERY well would be the Blackhawk Axiom 10/22 stock. That is a great stock, as the length of pull is adjustable and it uses an AR style buttstock that allows for a very repeatable cheek weld. It will also FREE FLOAT your barrel.

I have one complaint with the BlackHawk Axiom, the buttstock it comes with is flimsy....side to side and up/down play. Easy enough to fix....I just slapped a MAGPUL CTR buttstock on it. That got rid of all wobble. It also allows the attachment of MAGPUL cheek risers, of which are cheap in cost.

The other stock I like is the MAGPUL X22 stock. That is a phenomenal stock but costs a lot more than the Blackhawk. It also allows for clip on cheek risers, so you can get that perfect cheek weld.
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Old 01-02-2019, 09:47 AM
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Sounds good!
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navybowhunter View Post
An example of a cheap costing stock that works VERY well would be the Blackhawk Axiom 10/22 stock. That is a great stock, as the length of pull is adjustable and it uses an AR style buttstock that allows for a very repeatable cheek weld. It will also FREE FLOAT your barrel.
A stock I can recommend on this point is made by Archangel.

https://www.archangelmanufacturing.c...1022-ruger1022

It can be purchased for about $100 and has a robust, click adjustable cheek riser. This allows different people to use the rifle (since different people will require different heights), and the adjustments are small and repeatable. That solid riser precisely positioned has allowed me to shoot some very good (for me)groups from a bench with the sort of low price (and probably modest quality) optics that earn lots of internet ridicule.
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:00 PM
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I have the Beartooth comb risers on several rifles and carbines including a couple of scoped 10/22s:

http://www.beartooth-products.com/co...model-in-brown

More expensive than using cut up pool noodles and duct tape or vet wrap, but they look better and the different thickness of shaped foam pads allow you to customize the height of the stock comb to fit your optic, anatomy, and personal preference.
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  #6  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pblanc View Post
I have the Beartooth comb risers on several rifles and carbines including a couple of scoped 10/22s:

http://www.beartooth-products.com/co...model-in-brown

More expensive than using cut up pool noodles and duct tape or vet wrap, but they look better and the different thickness of shaped foam pads allow you to customize the height of the stock comb to fit your optic, anatomy, and personal preference.
Really looks good!
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:09 PM
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The Beartooth looks good, and will work.

However,

It still does not solve the issue of the head and eye being too far to the rear.

That is a big issue with standard sporter stocks, the stock/cheek piece is by design set way too far back.

I even find that my Magpul X22 stock has a similar issue...but it does allow me to get my head and cheekweld forward enough.

The Axiom, or any other that uses an AR style buttstock (adjustable in length) are ideal.

For example, in standing I like to have the stock a LOT shorter and in seated and prone I bring the stock out about 2 inches longer.

R/
Chris
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:12 PM
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The Archangel stock mentioned above looks like it would work very well.

It appears that one could get the head position and eye positioned very close, and the cheek riser appears to give the correct height needed for a crystal clear and immediate "immediate" crisp sight picture.

R/
Chris
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:34 PM
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Here is the crux of the connundrum/issue with sporter stocks...

They do not allow one to get the head close (and repeatably close) to the rear of the receiver.

This gets WAY WORSE when we add an optic....especially if one is mounting the optic to the receiver with a standard mount.

When using an optic, with the 10/22 for 3 position shooting, the ideal mounting solution is one that places the eyepiece of the optic flush with the back of the receiver, definitely not rearward of the back of the receiver.

Think iron sights here...tech sights. The rear peep is mounted very close to the rear of the receiver....which almost FORCES a FWD head position.

Ideally, with a scope, you would want your head to be in the same position you had with the tech sights.

That requires a CANTILEVER/OFFSET scope mount. Tactical Solutions offers a decent one piece mount that will set the eyepiece FWD 2 inches from what it typically would be.

Volquartsen barrels are drilled and tapped to accept their proprietary barrel mounted scope mount....which allows one to really get the scope FWD.....but it also adds a bit of height to the scope as well.

When we discuss cheek weld, we want that to be repeatable. And by repeatable, I mean EXACTLY the same. A non repeatable cheek weld, (I'm talking splitting hairs here in measurements) can cause a 10 ring shot to be an 8 ring shot, 2 MOA error, it is that critical.

So, all of this is not an issue if your satisfied with your current skill level and do not want to improve or spend money. Cause, unfortunately, it does cost $. But, I am simply laying out here what definitely works....

I have made the AWFUL mistake of procuring a very nice Laminated Volquartsen Sporter Stock. It was not until a year or so after buying it, I realized that it was pretty much hindering my personal performance and growth.

So, it is a paper weight now! LOL, a $200+ paper weight!

R/
Chris
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navybowhunter View Post
The Archangel stock mentioned above looks like it would work very well.
It works well enough that the first two I built were purchased from me on the line. The rifle is shouldered, shot, and the person trying it turns and asks if he can buy it.

Also, those click adjustable riser and buttpad adjustments have some weight, so in a standing position the rifle will balance in the support hand just forward of the magazine with an 18 inch bull barrel.

For a 3P compatible scope, I like low power, longish eye relief scopes marketed as shotgun scopes. They don't invite the forward mounting issues and are durable.

Last edited by zukiphile; 01-02-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:58 PM
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Let's be practical about this....

Appleseed was started by Fred (Jack) and a few others with the thought of making a Nation of Rifleman.

The way to accomplish this was via the history stories at the events coupled with rifle marksmanship, agreed?

Rack Grade 4 MOA was and is the standard that AS is all about.

Now, this is 2019, and you will find folks on the AS lines that have tricked out Ruger 10/22's and AR15 22 conversions that greatly exceed the $1000 mark. We can all agree we have seen that.

So, this post (and many others of mine) are geared towards those that are already willing to spend big money on quality equipment and gear.

Logically speaking, if one is already willing to spend that kind of "jingle jangle", why not steer those folks in a better direction with something that would be a heck of a lot better than a standard sporter stock?

I have seen 10/22s with Night Force optics on them! But....with a cheap mount system that does not place the eyepiece FWD enough for a reliable and repeatable cheek weld.

Money can absolutely buy accuracy. Money can absolutely buy inaccuracy as well. Knowing where to spend that money (if one is suited to do so).....Ahhhhhh, that is priceless.

I have gone through my fair share (and then some) of laminated sporter stocks, useless scope mounts, aftermarket Hogue overmolded sporter stocks, aftermarket trigger tuning jobs on the stock Ruger trigger (should have bought a KIDD trigger upfront) and that list goes on and on and on.....

Wish I knew all of this stuff when I started.

Take CMP Rimfire Sporter....a length of pull adjustment is not allowed in the match. One of the reasons I have the Magpul X22. But....when I look at the score cuts for the medals, the Tactical Class (one that allows a pistol grip).....they have been the same (or a tiny bit higher) than the T class.

I'll confidently state this.....a pistol grip to me is worth a 5 point deduction in class....as I will likely make those 5 points up in a better position anyways....

Just my thoughts....that is all they really are...LOL
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:12 PM
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Nothing like a basic shooting /training opportunity to become an equipment game. I do appreciate the information but I think it should for Appleseed 102, the next level.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:45 PM
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Nothing like a basic shooting /training opportunity to become an equipment game. I do appreciate the information but I think it should for Appleseed 102, the next level.
I'm susceptible to claims of better performance through equipment, even when I know that isn't what I should want. There's just something about the shiny new miracle piece.

All that said, giving new shooters some guidance on how to set up their equipment so it all works correctly has a lot of value. I still remember being a new shooter with a Marlin bolt action and having some less than sound ideas about big scopes with giant objectives, the desirability of larger capacity magazines, and some other things that no longer interest me. It took me time and focus to discover what I like, but that doesn't mean others should have to learn primarily from their own mistakes too.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:53 PM
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Nothing like a basic shooting /training opportunity to become an equipment game. I do appreciate the information but I think it should for Appleseed 102, the next level.
While there might be a place for a higher level of Appleseed, I think the longer you are involved with rifle marksmanship, the more you will want to improve your rifle/equipment, whether in Appleseed, Highpower, etc. I have witnessed such many times.

I attended my first Appleseed about ten years ago with a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights, scored a Rifleman score and was hooked on the program. I then shot for many years after with a CZ 452 UL with Brno sights, the longer sight radius allowed me to focus on the front sight better, with a lot of practice at home, I never failed to attain a Rifleman score with it at a shoot. In between the rimfires I shot M1's, M14's and AR15's, then with my eyesight failing(seems to be at a standstill now), I went back to 10/22 type rifles and added a scope. As a firearms enthusiast, I upgraded my rifles, with building my own with higher end parts, etc. Also, I shoot an AR15 or two with a scope as well.

I was helping run a shoot a few years ago, when a couple of Airman from the local AF base showed up to shoot. One allowed that he had paid over $1500.00 for his 10/22 type rifle and was determined to get that elusive patch he had been trying for....he didn't get it.

Just my perspective.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:19 PM
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I then shot for many years after with a CZ 452 UL with Brno sights,...
That's cheating. I sold mine; what a beauty it was.
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