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  #121  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodmaker View Post
When this thread started up, i got on board with it and bought a bore scope, a new Tipton rod ( the new one with the sliding handle is a dream to use ), couple of different solvents, etc. Started with my 452 Trainer. Brushed, soaked and patched about a dozen cycles b4 i got the ring out. Also had a lot of copper fouling. Previous owner must have shot a bunch of plated ammo. I know i haven't. My Remingtin 513-T had a bad ring and spotless bore. Brushed it once and let it soak for half an hour. Pushed a few patches thru it. Ring still there. I dipped a .22 cotton swab in Hoppes Black and inserted it in the chamber and left it for an hour followd by another brushing and patching. No more ring. I believe the wet swab may be the answer for me. Got another half dozen rifles to clean this weekend, so I'll get to test that method better.
I'd venture a guess that your success soaking the chamber with Hoppes Black wasn't simply because you soaked it with a general purpose gun cleaner. Black is formulated to clean carbon among other things.

Thanks for posting another option for a gun-safe carbon remover.
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  #122  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:04 AM
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The post about C4 smelling like citrus got my attention. A little internet research revealed that a 50/50 blend of orange oil and odorless mineral spirits makes a very effective carbon remover. I've got jugs of both out in the garage. Perhaps I will give it a try.
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  #123  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:02 AM
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  #124  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by R4B1DM4U53 View Post
Weelllll, he did say he bought a borescope, and if he was seeing copper, he was seeing copper. I've seen a copper wash in the bore from shooting copper "washed' ammo, but, it came right out with only Hoppes #9, so it's nothing like the copper fouling that one will get in a centerfire.

No doubt there are examples of some of the very thin copper wash from HV bullets on the inside of a .22LR bore and it is never like the copper fouling that can be in centerfire rifle bores.

For the general reader, the copper inside the bore from .17HMR or .22WMR rounds is a more common problem as those bullet are actually copper jacketed. High velocity .22LR ammo is typically electroplated with a thin wash of copper. Those bullets, such as CCI's entire line of .22LR lead-based bullets, are commonly lubricated with wax. When recovered after being shot, copper washed bullets still have the plating on them. Why? According to Steve Boelter, whose excellent treatise on rimfire cleaning helped inspire the OP's thread, "the wax, protected the copper plating from rubbing off onto the barrel."

More generally, it's sometimes challenging to identify exactly what is seen through a borescope, just as it can be difficult to say exactly what caused a patch to turn to color, whether it's carbon, powder fouling, lubrication, lead, copper, a combination of some of these, or a reaction between the solvent and the metal. But if a shooter saw copper while cleaning his bore, so be it.
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  #125  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
No doubt there are examples of some of the very thin copper wash from HV bullets on the inside of a .22LR bore and it is never like the copper fouling that can be in centerfire rifle bores.
Yeah, what I saw was an even, coppery glint down the entire bore. A couple wet patches removed it, so it was obviously very superficial. Could thick fouling build up from shooting thousands of copper plated/washed HV bullets in a .22LR, given a poor cleaning regime? I don't know. I've never neglected my firearms like that, or make much of a habit of shooting said HV ammo.

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Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
More generally, it's sometimes challenging to identify exactly what is seen through a borescope, just as it can be difficult to say exactly what caused a patch to turn to color, whether it's carbon, powder fouling, lubrication, lead, copper, a combination of some of these, or a reaction between the solvent and the metal. But if a shooter saw copper while cleaning his bore, so be it.
I still struggle to recognize if a feature in the bore is a pit (depression) or a raised lump of material. I have to move the borescope slightly forwards and back, rotate a little each way, until the light angles make sense to my eyes/brain.

For educational purposes, I snapped this pic as I am in the midst of cleaning my .270. True copper fouling is unmistakable when viewed with a borescope, and I would be shocked to see this in a .22LR.



I'm no "patch whisperer", I rely on my borescope to show me when I have successfully removed the fouling. For copper, I use KG 12 copper solvent. It's very effective versus ammonia based solvents, but there are no real telltale signs on the patches (such as bluing) to indicate when the copper has been removed.
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  #126  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R4B1DM4U53 View Post
I'm no "patch whisperer", I rely on my borescope to show me when I have successfully removed the fouling. For copper, I use KG 12 copper solvent. It's very effective versus ammonia based solvents, but there are no real telltale signs on the patches (such as bluing) to indicate when the copper has been removed.
My gunsmith put me on KG 12 when he built my 6.5CM, I use nothing but nylon brushes, a carbon remover then the KG 12, usually 3 patches with 10 stokes each. Patch dry. Gunsmith is seeing no copper when he checks up on my cleaning.
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  #127  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
I think I understand now. Some shooters wish to never use a brush and equate a few runs with a brush through the barrel after each shooting session with mechanical scrubbing. Along with patching every 100 rounds or so, I always thought of it as a regular bore cleaning regimen, the course of which prevents the development of carbon rings. I never thought of it as scrubbing.

I had a match coming up, so I used the opportunity to try the preventative maintenance method of a few passes with a brush that you suggested. While I do see merit in what was suggested, after my experiment, I also see it as only delaying the inevitable carbon ring.

I have a series if pictures. The first is the carbon ring in my Lilja, EPS Match chambered barrel as it was after I got home from my match. I had not even pushed a dry patch through it yet. This ring is after exactly 100 rounds of Lapua Center-X.

The second picture is of the same approximate location in the chamber after a pass with a dry patch.

The third picture is, again, the same approximate location in the chamber after 4 complete forward and rearward passes with a brand new .22 caliber bronze brush. I again ran a dry patch through to clean out any debris from brushing before taking the photo.

While the bronze brushing did knock down the carbon buildup, it didn't remove it altogether. This much would be left to build upon at the next trip to the range.

Again, while I do see that it will slow the ring growth, inevitably a ring will form and need to be removed.

It took 2 patches and 4 complete forward and rearward cycles of a bronze brush to knock down the ring. It only takes me 3 patches to disolve and completely remove a ring with the right solvent. Unless someone doesn't have a carbon removing cleaner available to them, I don't see any reason to not simply remove it altogether.
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  #128  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RickBaum View Post
While the bronze brushing did knock down the carbon buildup, it didn't remove it altogether. This much would be left to build upon at the next trip to the range.

Again, while I do see that it will slow the ring growth, inevitably a ring will form and need to be removed.

It took 2 patches and 4 complete forward and rearward cycles of a bronze brush to knock down the ring. It only takes me 3 patches to disolve and completely remove a ring with the right solvent. Unless someone doesn't have a carbon removing cleaner available to them, I don't see any reason to not simply remove it altogether.
Was the brush with or without solvent?

My daily cleaning involves patching every hundred rounds at the range and a couple passes with a bronze brush with Bore Tech Rimfire Blend at home, then cleaned up with patches. A more thorough cleaning involves leaving the solvent in the barrel as per instructions before brushing and patching.

I shoot four to five times weekly during my all-too-short shooting season. I've not yet seen a carbon ring in any of my rifles, which get bore scoped regularly, now perhaps more often with the greater convenience of the Teslong scope referred to earlier in this thread.

One of the good things about Rimfire Blend is that it removes carbon fouling as well as wax, lube, and other residue. I have Bore Tech's C4 Carbon Remover but it doesn't see much use. Of course different bores can have different cleaning requirements as your experience would seem to indicate.
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  #129  
Old 02-15-2020, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
Was the brush with or without solvent?

My daily cleaning involves patching every hundred rounds at the range and a couple passes with a bronze brush with Bore Tech Rimfire Blend at home, then cleaned up with patches. A more thorough cleaning involves leaving the solvent in the barrel as per instructions before brushing and patching.

I shoot four to five times weekly during my all-too-short shooting season. I've not yet seen a carbon ring in any of my rifles, which get bore scoped regularly, now perhaps more often with the greater convenience of the Teslong scope referred to earlier in this thread.

One of the good things about Rimfire Blend is that it removes carbon fouling as well as wax, lube, and other residue. I have Bore Tech's C4 Carbon Remover but it doesn't see much use. Of course different bores can have different cleaning requirements as your experience would seem to indicate.
Hey Penage..

Maybe you could take some photos of your process and post them. I'm sure it would be of benefit.

Per my most recent pictures, I didn't use any solvent. I should have read your old post more carefully, but I only remembered you suggesting that a carbon ring maintenance of a few brush strokes to keep it in check.

I also use Rimfire Blend, but only if doing a thorough cleaning of my bore. It does have a carbon cleaning component to it, but in my experience, it is not as agressive on carbon rings as C4 is. I've attatched another photo of the same carbon ring posted earlier tonight. This time, after the previous dry patching, and dry brushing, I've used Bore Tech's Rimfire Blend to soak the previously knocked down ring. This picture is after soaking the chamber twice for 25 minutes each time. It's obvious to me that brushing is required to throroughly remove a ring while using Rimfire Blend.

I can't remember if I mentioned it in another post, but C4 is formulated for carbon and does very little more than just wet the bore of your rifle if a wet patch is passed through your fouled bore. So, for those that like to leave the fouling in their bore, but would like to remove a carbon ring, C4, or something similar that is formulated specifically to disolve carbon deposits in guns, is a good candidate.

For those that want to thouroughly clean their bore and knock down the ring with some brushing, then Rimfire Blend is a good choice.
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  #130  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:32 PM
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Hey Rick, I just cleaned several rifles today, one of them being my Weatherby XXII that I last shot in a Silhouette match back in September (yeah... I know... slap my wrist...). It had about 110 rounds through it, and the carbon ring looked very much like your second picture. I pushed a couple patches wet with Hoppes #9 through it, then brushed with a bronze brush for 10 back and forth strokes (wet with #9), then several dry patches to dry the bore. This is the result:



The dark line is just shadowing/lighting, it'll follow the borescope as you move it, revealing shiny metal underneath. Carbon ring gone. A couple wet patches with Hoppes #9 and 10 brush strokes is my thorough cleaning regime, and it has only failed to remove the carbon ring on badly neglected rifles (like my 18 year old Remington 597 before I had a borescope). For shooting up to 200 rounds a session, this works like a charm for me. My brush isn't new, but still feels tight in the bore. Once a brush starts feeling "loose", it could take 25 strokes to remove the carbon ring, if at all.
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  #131  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:52 PM
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My take is that bore cleaning and chamber cleaning are two different, but interrelated functions.
I clean the bore first hoping some initial chamber 'swabbing' may take place but do not expect the chamber to be 'done up'. And when I do the chamber I do not want to push through what comes out of there.
Sadly, Amazon is currently out of the C4 small bottle, it is listed as temporary; this thread may be responsible for that.
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  #132  
Old 02-15-2020, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by R4B1DM4U53 View Post
Hey Rick, I just cleaned several rifles today, one of them being my Weatherby XXII that I last shot in a Silhouette match back in September (yeah... I know... slap my wrist...). It had about 110 rounds through it, and the carbon ring looked very much like your second picture. I pushed a couple patches wet with Hoppes #9 through it, then brushed with a bronze brush for 10 back and forth strokes (wet with #9), then several dry patches to dry the bore. This is the result:



The dark line is just shadowing/lighting, it'll follow the borescope as you move it, revealing shiny metal underneath. Carbon ring gone. A couple wet patches with Hoppes #9 and 10 brush strokes is my thorough cleaning regime, and it has only failed to remove the carbon ring on badly neglected rifles (like my 18 year old Remington 597 before I had a borescope). For shooting up to 200 rounds a session, this works like a charm for me. My brush isn't new, but still feels tight in the bore. Once a brush starts feeling "loose", it could take 25 strokes to remove the carbon ring, if at all.
Hey Rrrrrabido..

That's good to hear and pass on to everyone. There is always more than one way around a fence, eh?

Undoubtedly, there will be those that are concerned about a carbon ring but don't want to, or can't afford to, change the way they've always done things, and therefore don't want to buy a new bottle of cleaner specifically for a carbon ring. I know that it can be done that way, I used to do it until I found and easier way that didn't require any brushing at all. I am inherently lazy afterall..

I think you touched on something in your post. The old neglected Remington..lol Once a ring builds to the point that it seriously effects accuracy, it could take a considerable amount of work to get rid of a ring that thick using only a standard cleaning solvent.

A part of my whole point of the "getting rid of a carbon ring" part of my original post was that it can be done chemically without having to scrub/brush it out. In my opinion, every time a cleaning impliment is pushed or pulled through the barrel, there is an opportunity to damage it. If those 10 brush strokes, or whatever number it may be, are eliminated, it's that many fewer opportunities of damage.
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  #133  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:58 PM
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Hey Rrrrrabido..

That's good to hear and pass on to everyone. There is always more than one way around a fence, eh?

Yep

Undoubtedly, there will be those that are concerned about a carbon ring but don't want to, or can't afford to, change the way they've always done things, and therefore don't want to buy a new bottle of cleaner specifically for a carbon ring. I know that it can be done that way, I used to do it until I found and easier way that didn't require any brushing at all. I am inherently lazy afterall..

Well, you know, I'm 100% done my cleaning, including a full stripdown of the the bolt and re-oiling/greasing of it before you've let your first carbon removing patch soak, hehe.

I think you touched on something in your post. The old neglected Remington..lol Once a ring builds to the point that it seriously effects accuracy, it could take a considerable amount of work to get rid of a ring that thick using only a standard cleaning solvent.

If I recall correctly, I had to short stroke the chamber of that Remmy for nearly an hour with JB Bore Paste to remove it's carbon ring. Stay on top of firearm maintenance, and it's a breeze. Neglect it, and it becomes a major chore.

A part of my whole point of the "getting rid of a carbon ring" part of my original post was that it can be done chemically without having to scrub/brush it out. In my opinion, every time a cleaning impliment is pushed or pulled through the barrel, there is an opportunity to damage it. If those 10 brush strokes, or whatever number it may be, are eliminated, it's that many fewer opportunities of damage.
Valid point there, one could brush the bore properly 1000 times, but that one time you mess up, you've killed it. Calfee speaks out against ever "pushing" a brush through the bore, and insists it should only be attached at the muzzle and "pulled" back through the bore.

It may be worthy to post what "Big Dog" does for his cleaning. For those that don't know, he recently set the ARA Nationals Indoor record in 2019, with a rifle he's owned for 12 years. It clearly hasn't been damaged by his cleaning methods.

"Iíll try to answer Bill's request above and give some insight to how I clean my barrels and the items I use to do so. Iím sure there are more than one way to ďSkin the CatĒ, but this is what works for me. Of course, everyone just needs to find what works best for them & their barrels.

Below is a list of the things I use to clean my barrels.
1) Bill Meyers cleaning rod
2) 2-piece delrin bore guide (purchased years ago from Dan Killough, I donít think he carries this one anymore). This bore guide has a full length insert to match the length of the main action body part of the guide. This gives support over a longer length of the rod to prevent deflection inside the barrel. I run a little test to determine the amount of deflection as follows; insert the complete boreguide assembly in the action, insert the rod with jag attached just to the beginning of the barrel chamber opening. Move the handle of the rod up & down while watching how much the jag deflects at the barrel chamber opening. I want mine to deflect as little as possible. Mine will stay inside the barrel chamber opening when I do this test. A lot of the guides will allow the deflection to move way outside the chamber opening, sometimes a ĹĒ- ĺĒ or more of total movement up & down. This could allow the rod more of a chance to come in contact with the barrel while cleaning.
3) Kleenbore brass cleaning jag #jag-227
4) Pro-Shot 22 cal centerfire bronze brush
5) Proshot cleaning patches 1-1/8Ēx 1-1/8Ē square
6) Butches Bore Shine solvent
7) IOSSO paste

Before a tournament Iíll clean as below:
1) Push one wet patch the full length (chamber to crown), leave rod extended out the barrel, remove jag and replace with bronze brush
2) Wet the bronze brush and pull back through the bore (crown to chamber) taking care when entering at the crown.
3) Push wet patch (chamber to crown)
4) Push dry patch (chamber to crown)
5) Push another dry patch (chamber to crown)
6) Repeat steps 1-5
7) Repeat steps 1-5 again

Between targets Iíll clean as below:
1) Push a wet patch full length of barrel (chamber to crown)
2) Push a dry patch full length of barrel (chamber to crown)
3) Push another dry patch full length of barrel (chamber to crown)

If I think my accuracy is falling off, during the match, Iíll clean as below:
1) Push one wet patch the full length (chamber to crown), leave rod extended out the barrel, remove jag and replace with bronze brush
2) Wet the bronze brush and pull back through the bore (crown to chamber) taking care when entering at the crown.
3) Push wet patch (chamber to crown)
4) Push dry patch (chamber to crown)
5) Push another dry patch (chamber to crown)

I will give my barrel a super cleaning session about once or twice per year, depending on how much I shoot and if I think the accuracy is falling off. Below is that cleaning procedure.
1) Push a wet patch the full length of the barrel.
2) Rub Iosso on a patch and short stroke (chamber only) for 10-20 strokes.
3) Put a dry patch on and short stroke the chamber the same amount of strokes as step #2.
4) Push a wet patch the full length of the barrel.
5) Push 2 dry patches the full length of the barrel.
6) Repeat steps 1-5.
7) Repeat steps 1-5.
8) Once Iím happy with the steps above then Iíll repeat steps 4&5 just for good measure.

Remember the goal is to clean as little as possible while maintaining the accuracy needed to be competitive in this great benchrest game. Good Luck to all.

Mike Sherrill"
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  #134  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by R4B1DM4U53 View Post
It may be worthy to post what "Big Dog" does for his cleaning.
Wet the bronze brush
Mike Sherrill"
[/COLOR]
My bronze brush doesn't hold cleaner for beans.
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  #135  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:46 AM
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Hey Penage..

Maybe you could take some photos of your process and post them. I'm sure it would be of benefit.

Per my most recent pictures, I didn't use any solvent. I should have read your old post more carefully, but I only remembered you suggesting that a carbon ring maintenance of a few brush strokes to keep it in check.
I'd be happy to take bore pictures and post them. At this time, however, all my rifles are clean and waiting for the snow to go so I can get to my range, which is down an unplowed road. It's a test of patience waiting for shooting season to begin again as early as late April. It tests my wife's patience too, but for other reasons I'm sure.

To be fair, no product cleans everything superlatively. And earlier I never thought about mentioning solvent on the brush. I shouldn't have made assumptions. In any case it may not dramatically change things, as different bores may require different cleaning regimens. Mine is one of preventive medicine. I patch every hundred rounds and after every range session I use a wet brush for a couple of passes through the bore followed by a couple of wet and dry patches.
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