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  #1186  
Old 07-03-2020, 02:41 PM
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Thanks! But they promised me there'd be no math!
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  #1187  
Old 07-04-2020, 09:53 AM
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Im gonna havta be gettin me some o' that
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  #1188  
Old 07-04-2020, 08:05 PM
W8LON

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Hmm only one box of that lot number left. Someone must be paying attention.
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  #1189  
Old 07-11-2020, 03:25 PM
jaia
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Eley Semi-auto Benchrest Outlaw 40 grain 22lr, rated 1090 fps

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair Bipod, 200 yards

Shooting at noon, westerly wind from over my left shoulder
at 4 to 7 mph, with a decent amount of shimmer and steam visible in the air.
Last nights rain made it fun wading though the floating fire ants to hang the targets.



Visual inspection shows the cartridges aren't quite as good as the last Eley product tried.
A bit more lube in odd spots and not as clean a crimp...still, not horrible.
At 45 bucks a brick I can deal with it.



43 fps ES and very decent results from the first 50, considering the tailwind.



34 fps ES from the second 50, again, not bad at $4.50 a box.



That was surprisingly good for a middle/low end 22lr cartridge.
200 yards and 5 inches of spread for 50 shots
100 yards expect 1.7 inches, at 50 yards gonna get 0.57 inches.
Again, a decent box of ammo for a decent price.
No fail to fires either, how about that?

Last edited by jaia; 07-11-2020 at 03:42 PM.
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  #1190  
Old 07-12-2020, 08:05 AM
thesandman
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I recently went to Lapua in Marengo Ohio to test ammo. Getting alot of vertical from new ammo I checked velocity, es and sd. Problem is I don't know what is good for upper end ammo, so here I am asking the guru, what is good sd and es? Thanks Brother Jaia.
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  #1191  
Old 07-12-2020, 08:18 AM
jaia
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I have no use for standard deviation.
All I care about is extreme spread
All SD tells you is what to expect from 2 out of 3 shots fired.
SD does not win competitions, ES is what loses a competition.
My preference is the smallest ES you can find.
An ES of 40 fps seems to be the cut off point between true match ammo
and the next grade down. The majority of better 22lr I've tested
had an ES in the 30 to 40 fps range for 50 shots.
The best was from a box of Midas+ with an ES of 19 fps.
With a 40 grain 22 lr, 10 fps difference between two shots
results in about 7/100ths of an inch vertical spread at 50 yards.
So 40 fps causes about 1/4 inch of vertical at 50 yards.
That's half moa just due to mv differences.
When you find a batch with the ES less than 30, buy all of it.
It doesn't show up very often.

Last edited by jaia; 07-12-2020 at 08:35 AM.
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  #1192  
Old 07-12-2020, 09:41 AM
thesandman
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Thanks Brother; I thought there was alot of vertical for Midas+.
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  #1193  
Old 07-12-2020, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Eley Semi-auto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr, rated 1080 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod, 200 yards

What? No 2x4s?? What kind of haphazard testing is this?
__________________
The better you are, the more lucky you will be.
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  #1194  
Old 07-12-2020, 09:56 AM
jaia
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Ummmmmm... I didn't want to admit this....but that 455 Varmint... it's also a Fuglie.

Just not an ugly Fuglie. But it is technically a Firearm Utilizing Glued Linear Integral Embedding.

Receiver is pillared and bedded, and the barrel is epoxy bedded into the barrel channel.
No stock flex, no recoil bounce, minimal barrel harmonics. Works well with the Sinclair bipod.


Last edited by jaia; 07-12-2020 at 10:09 AM.
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  #1195  
Old 07-12-2020, 06:36 PM
KeisiMekaigo

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
I have no use for standard deviation.
All I care about is extreme spread
All SD tells you is what to expect from 2 out of 3 shots fired.
SD does not win competitions, ES is what loses a competition.
My preference is the smallest ES you can find.
If Im not wrong, jaia, in this image I just draw, left group has higher ES but lower SD, and right group has lower ES and higher SD. Is then a better group the one in the right?
I think both parameters give us diferent information about the ammo, and both needed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ES vs DS.jpg (7.5 KB, 329 views)

Last edited by KeisiMekaigo; 07-12-2020 at 06:46 PM.
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  #1196  
Old 07-12-2020, 06:57 PM
jaia
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KM, I see y'er point, but sadly, I've never had those results shown on the left.
Never a clean high low, always the gradual bell curve as shown on the right.
Still, in a match, those 2 strays would cost you the win.




That's why I gave up on SD.
My results are always the cluster to the right.
ES and the pattern of the results are the indicators I document.

Last edited by jaia; 07-12-2020 at 07:49 PM.
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  #1197  
Old 07-12-2020, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeisiMekaigo View Post
If Im not wrong, jaia, in this image I just draw, left group has higher ES but lower SD, and right group has lower ES and higher SD. Is then a better group the one in the right?
I think both parameters give us diferent information about the ammo, and both needed.

I would add that, statistically speaking, standard deviation is a means of understanding extreme spread over a significant sample size, assuming a normal distribution.

It could be said that, in a normal distribution, your ES will be darn close to six times the SD.
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File Type: jpeg 91D9BAA0-7873-4AD6-B23E-983459AB3270.jpeg (30.0 KB, 239 views)
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  #1198  
Old 07-13-2020, 05:08 AM
KeisiMekaigo

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This is how ELEY showed it in his Lot analyzer
I cant find it in Eleys web no more. It was useful information.
Like you say (jaia and TT92) Eley notes the distribution is normal.
But in the two examples I draw (left and right), both can be statistical samples of a normal distribution.
Both will have a bell (a function of two variables, mean or expectation and SD), with diferent parameters. The mean can be the same, but diferent SD.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg distribucion2.jpg (26.5 KB, 224 views)
File Type: jpg distribucion.jpg (62.4 KB, 228 views)

Last edited by KeisiMekaigo; 07-13-2020 at 05:47 AM.
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  #1199  
Old 07-13-2020, 06:59 AM
jaia
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Thanks for the explantions/pics guys.
More useful information explaining my chrony numbers.
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  #1200  
Old 07-13-2020, 09:41 AM
KeisiMekaigo

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Thanks for the explantions/pics guys.
More useful information explaining my chrony numbers.
Thanks you, jaia. This thread is not a thread, is an ammo encyclopedia. You do an amazing job for all of us. The first thing I do before choosing an ammo to try, is read your posts.

Last edited by KeisiMekaigo; 07-13-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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