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  #16  
Old 08-23-2004, 03:04 PM
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22 mags



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I don't think the ammo prices for the 17's and 22 mags are in the rules. Second, marlin plastic stocks in the 22 mags(also 22 rifles) won't be as accurate as the wood or laminates, this may also apply to other sporter rifles in the lower money classes. I think the trigger, barrel, and no match ammo, may be agreeable. I like the scope limits, but think the stocks should be sporter only, and only replaced as a drop in from the factory to keep it from getting way out there. Again---Good job Joe Bill
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  #17  
Old 08-23-2004, 04:18 PM
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S,

You bring up a good point that occured to me last night.ALL 17HMR and 90% of the .22mag ammo out there is MORE than $5 per box.Therefore,the Price limits should apply to only the .22LR class.The Magnum class should basically be if it's factory loaded ammo(No OSSI custom stuff) then it's legal..

Also the new 17MII should be in the magnum class as it's accuracy SHOULD be compared to the Magnums and not a .22LR.It will give the owners of those new rifles a place to prove 'em..

I agree with the $5 limit and I also have not problem with an 18x Maximum at 50 an out to 100yards(on the mags)..I see the point about new shooters and lower magnification/priced scopes...

And lastly,as too the Master class shooters,let 'em shoot-just only in their own class.

I suggest the following classes:

LE stands for Low End(Priced under$500)
HE stands for High End(priced over $500)

1) LE Sporter .22lr
2) LE Sporter .22lr- Master.
3) HE Sporter .22LR
4) HE Sporter .22lr -Master.

5) LE Sporter Magnum
6) HE Sporter Magnum-Master
7) LE Sporter Magnum
8) HE Sporter Magnum- Master

Those classifications would let everyone shoot.It also would break down the data So we can see how the "newbies" are shooting against the Masters,how expensive guns are shooting against the cheaper guns etc, without any unfair advantage within a class.

The number of entries in each class might be thin at first ,but once folks understand that they are basically shooting against equal equipment and shooters,in the end it should encourage more TOTAL participation in the end.

I would say forget the prizes(for now) in this match.It for learning ,competition and pride of accomplishment pretty much anyway.

IMHO,we have needed something like it here on RFC for a long time for sporters...

Last edited by cherokee100; 08-23-2004 at 05:16 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2004, 05:47 PM
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Let me say

from the start that I am unbiased as to this class as I don't own and am unwilling to buy a lesser rifle than I now own to compete in this class. THIS IS SUSPOSED TO BE A CLASS FOR NEW, REPEAT NEW SHOOTERS. Not those people that have the skills to be rated in a higher class wanting to take advantage of lesser skilled shooters.

The sporting clays discipline has a scoring and classification system that has proved highly successful. One rule can make a lot of the other bickering go away. If there are ten or more participants in a class and a person wins that class, they are automatically graduated to the next higher class and may not participate for prizes in the lower class. At max, that would mean that twelve people over the course of a year would be promoted to the next higher class. To be promoted would mean bragging rights in itself for a new shooter.

By all means give the Factory sporter class a prize. It means as much, or more to them than it does to those of us that have won stuff before. Often what sets a new shooter on fire is WINNING.

In fact I think similar rules should be in place for all classes. If you shoot a 240, you are in the masters class [permanently] and shall compete against others of like abilities and equipment.

If you really want to lure NEW SHOOTERS, you need to shoot unaltered factory rifles, PERIOD. I have the skills to take a lowly Savage rifle and do a number of things to it to improve it's accuracy. Most new shooters do not have these skills [and a lot of them are driven away because of their percieved disadvantage]. this needs to be a class of zero equipment race IMHO.

In checking last months results at 50, there was but one hunter class shooter [or maybe it was orange blaster]. IMHO just replace this class with your factory sporter. Give an average plinker type a chance to shoot in a truly competitive atmosphere and watch him/or her come up through the ranks.

As for ammo, put a limit if you must, but most would be able to afford a small quanity of good ammo for match use. It would be interesting what most new shooters would use. Again I repeat, NEW SHOOTERS.

Same goes for guns. Not many NEW SHOOTERS buy an Annie , Cooper, or CZ for their first rifle. Those rifles are for them to STEP UP TO as they work their way up the ranks.

Same goes for scopes. I would feel bad if I counceled a new shooter to not buy the best scope he could afford. That scope could be moved from gun to gun for a shooters lifetime. The sport of target shooting is susposed to advance the desire to improve accuracy and the shooters skill level. We need to be careful to not contradict that premise.

Give a NEW SHOOTER a chance to be competitive with his BOX STOCK factory rifle. As his skill level improves I think you will see his equipment improve also. If all shooters are required to compete against others with comparable skill and equipment levels, you will see true competition spawned.

Sermon ended.

Ron Garrett
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:00 PM
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And, after thinking about it

If there are not ten shooters [especially at first], maybe a shooter should be moved up if scoring higher than a certain amount three times.
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knitepoet
Joe, I have a problem with #8 (Banning master class shooters) I don't see what good that would do. Me with my stock Ultra Lux with one of Brookie's springs in it isn't any better or worse than someone else with the same equipment
Paul
Sorry Paul, I disagree. Your skill with your CZ is probably greater than a true new shooter's skill with his CZ. And even if it isn't, your perceived to him skill, seeing your 250's posted with your Annie is greater than he feels his is. If he has to compete with you he will feel intimidated. And you can still shoot your CZ if you wish in the monthly side match, BAB match, etc.

I agree with Ron, this would be a good format to attract new shooters with basic equipment. Us "veterans" still have the unlimited class to compete in. And as I stated before & Ron did, at least the "Masters" & "High Masters" should be only allowed to compete with like classed shooters.........
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  #21  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:30 PM
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Cool What say we...

1. Do the poll, 1 vote per is good.

2. Shoot what we got that makes the 'cut': weapon, scope, ammo, rests, whatever!
3. Submit the scores and review the results.

4. Make changes as needed.

5. Do it again.

I'm ready to go... What's the deal? - We going to shoot targets, or pick nits?
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  #22  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:40 PM
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I agree with Ziplock. Let's vote on some rules, load up our sporters, and get 'er done!
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  #23  
Old 08-23-2004, 06:58 PM
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I agree, put'em up and let us vote. This is a great idea.

Chunckchucker
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  #24  
Old 08-23-2004, 07:09 PM
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Optional rules

1. Ammo=$3.00 a box 22 LR only, the mags cost more at their cheapest

2. Max gun value=$300.00

3. Max scope power=9 at 25yds and 18 at 50 yds
3A Max scope value=$300.00
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  #25  
Old 08-23-2004, 08:55 PM
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A
B
A
B
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  #26  
Old 08-23-2004, 09:17 PM
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Good sermon Ron. I don't have a 300.00 rifle either, nor do I want one. It'd be good to get new shooters into the matches. I wonder if banning the Masters is a good idea--even though I promise not to play--I give up shooting my BR rifle in the email matches for that reason. But, if I was one of those new shooters I'd be striving to beat the Masters! One thing though--if a guy is competitive by nature, his goal is to beat people he perceives better than himself. I think limiting equipment, limits improvement. But, good luck with whatever you choose.
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  #27  
Old 08-23-2004, 09:37 PM
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1.C
2.B
3.C
4.C Most factory guns can be had for less than 500 at actual retail. I would assume that this group of rifles and the shooters who own them are your target group for this event.
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  #28  
Old 08-23-2004, 09:38 PM
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I pretty much agree with Ron. Stan makes a good point with the experience versus a newbie, even with a factory sporter. Stands to reason, the experience will win out, given equal equipment. I beleive that once a shooter gets master, or any class for that matter, that he/she should retain that classification. Some months I don't shoot master scores but, I should not shoot against a lower classification because I don't shoot to my potential. No sandbagging with permanent classifications. Of course masters can shoot against other masters in the factory class. Kent I have a CZ I use for tree rats that you can shoot if you come north.

Ken
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  #29  
Old 08-23-2004, 10:04 PM
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so i can't shoot my remington 37 that i bought for 175$ or my rem510 target master for 60$ ,they are still factory , or can i? and still shoot my remington 581 in all the other matches. how are you going to know if a guy like me, that jumped in with both feet for the first time this year. built two rifles for my son and i just to shoot more together and see how we stack up to other shooters in the world . we onley have a few months that we have been posting on here. can we shoot this class or are we going to have to shoot with every one less.just post the rules and tell me if we can shoot in the class or not . i don't know.

thanks gunner
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  #30  
Old 08-24-2004, 12:38 AM
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Sounds interesting.

I shot small bore three position in high school and have never done benchrest but would be willing to try it. I am a little rusty but think something like this would be fun and good practice. My current set up includes a stock CZ 452 FS w/ zero mods and I've got a 4-12x scope I was planning to use on a different gun but could swap for this purpose. The sticker on the CZ box says 379.00 and the scope was 250.00. Most would rate the less expensive Lux model as more accurate so I see no reason why the cost of the rifle should matter so long as it has not had custom gunsmithing done to it (except for fitting the stock to the shooter). I'd be willing to go against any rifle for fun just to see how my skill and equipment stack up.

The most important thing you guys seem to be looking for is novice or newer shooters and stock equipment. I think Cherokee100 has an excellent idea for breaking down the categories so everyone can be involved without getting intimidated but I would like to suggest that they should also be based on whether or not the gun has been modified. For this class perhaps you should have a separation between unmodified rifles and those that have been tweaked by owners only, no custom gunsmithing. That way participants are either forced to master their equipment or learn enough about it to improve it on their own. Max the suggested limits so all can play and once enough are involved and you can see separations in performance clearly split it up. Start out with as many as you can find for friendly competition for now and once you have enough interest create the divisions and get serious.

1. C
2. C
3. ? - I have no experience w/ BR so I have no preference
4. D - only the panel would be making a decision on classification rather than eligibility.

Last edited by Iceshark03; 08-24-2004 at 12:44 AM.
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