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  #1  
Old 04-18-2019, 03:00 PM
LDBennett
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PSA 22LR AR failure to feed



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I just got my 22LR PSA complete upper (for a AR15 lower) and took it to the range today. FAILURE: to feed ammo.

The ammo would come out of the Black Dog magazine and shoot right by the cut on the bolt for the rim, missing the extractor all together. The extractor is suppose to hold the case to the bolt face but the cartridge rim has to get under it first. There was not enough protrusion of the extractor onto the bolt face to catch the cartridge rim reliably. I bought a complete upper rather than build one to be sure the upper would be tested before I received it. Since the failures were a bit random, maybe they just did not get enough rounds through it.

I got the first 18 out of 20 Federal Auto Match to feed fine and the accuracy was great. But when I tired other ammo (CCI, S&B) about every other one would miss the bolt face and continue up into the bolt carrier and jam the gun requiring pulling the bolt carrier group out of the gun to dig out the stuck round.

It is not unusual for new guns to have poorly fitted extractors based on my experiences over the last 30 years. So with a few stokes of a file on the backside of the extractor, allowing the extractor to move closer to the firing pin hole, I got the gun to feed plastic dummies reliable at home. Looks like another range trip is needed. This one today was cut short because of these failures to feed.

Regardless of this problem, I like this gun. It is accurate (when it shoots). I like the design and the fit and finish of all the internals. Iíll get this gun going! I feel for the guy with no mechanical or gunsmithing skills if his has the same problem. It is a simple fix if you know what to do, like many gunsmithing tasks,

LDBennett
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:42 AM
Steal Shooter

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So have you had as chance to shoot it since? How accurate is it. Thinking of buying one and using to small game hunt. Just want simethi g different but want it to be accurate. Thanks
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:53 AM
LDBennett
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I have not had a chance to shoot it since fixing the extractor last week.

I did get 18 sequential shots onto one target before the feeding problem got too bad. I got one ragged hole about the size of a quarter at 50 feet. The ammo was Federal AutoMatch. The gun was using a 4x Burris rimfire scope. The shooting position was a bit unsteady and the goal was to break in the barrel and not go for best groups. The shooting session was then marred by excessive failure to feed and terminated. The plan is to return to the range, move to 50 yards, and test several other brands, assuming the extractor fix makes the feeding reliable (it now feeds plastic dummies on the work bench perfectly). I did determine that it extracted and locked the bolt back on Standard Velocity ammo (CCI) but more testing is required.

I think this is an accurate 22. My Volquartsenized Ruger 10/22 (barrel, stock, and trigger by Volquartsen) is probably more accurate...but we'll see.

LDBennett
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:25 AM
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Locked the bolt open? That's something new. How does that work w/out altering the lower?
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:51 AM
LDBennett
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"Lock the bolt open":

The bolt catches on the protruding magazine follower and stays to the rear. The Black Dog magazines' follower protrudes way above the lips and into the path of the bolt, locking the bolt to the rear. But when the bolt is locked back, the bolt will travel forward if you drop the magazine.

Obviously the 223 Bolt latch does nothing in this gun. The lock back function for this configuration is done by the 22LR Black Dog magazine follower.

In this California lower, I have to defeat the mag release when the gun's upper and lower are closed and pinned to make the lower CA compliant as a fixed magazine gun. This is not necessary for 22LR but this lower is also used with 223 and 300 AAC Blackout uppers, requiring this feature. With this 22LR upper, cracking the upper and lower open to remove the magazine also makes the bolt travel forward. That also allows magazine removal. It is a pain but it is better in my mind to make the gun fixed magazine than to register it in California as an Assault Weapon. A fixed magazine configuration exempts it from AW registration and as a pure target shooter in a range setting, it is not that much of a problem for me.

The fact that even Std Vel ammo will lock the bolt back assures me that my ammo choices can include very accurate Std Vel ammos in finding the ammo the gun likes. Also more powerful ammo will not damage this gun in recoil because the excess energy can be absorbed by the recoil spring and buffer in the 223 receiver extension. Normally that spring is not used as the upper bolt carrier group for this 22LR upper has its own recoil spring. Normal 22LR guns may get beat up by excessively powerful ammo use if not sprung for it.

LDBennett
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Old 04-22-2019, 04:25 PM
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When you go out and try it out again, if it still has failures...send it back to PSA. They will stand behind their products. I think I mentioned this somewhere before, but I also purchased a full 22 upper from PSA for my first one.


The upper is just part of the equation on these 22's. There are so many combinations of lowers/adapters/mags, etc. and I wanted to at least start with a "known good" upper. I tried different mags well as different 22 adapters and combinations. What I settled in with was the Better Mag adapter with S&W M&P 15/22 mags. I also used a TACCOM pressure plug but I don't really know if that made a difference or not. I also use standard AR15 trigger assembly with lighter springs.

My 2 AR15/22's are kind of picky with ammo. The CCI standard velocity is not only the most accurate, but also the very most reliable. The bulk packs (333/555, etc.) are so so accurate, but jam up a lot. Also, be careful when loading the mags. Make sure the rounds are straight and "smack the mag into your hand" when done to make sure the rounds are all towards the back of the mag. When I am at camp-shoots (like this last weekend), I insisted on loading the mags with MY ammo (CCI) and were 100% reliable. When I finally ran out of ammo (800 rounds or so), they still wanted to shoot and all they had was bulk ammo. I let them them use it and with the combination of the ammo itself and the people not loading the mags correctly, there were NUMEROUS failures of all kinds. I think there was even one OOB as what came out was the spend cartridge...minus the rim. And the rim came out separately. It was loud also. Anyway...find the ammo that works best in your rifle and stick with it. Insist on loading the mags yourself, making sure they are loaded properly.
Finally, after a couple thousand rounds it doesn't hurt to clean it every now and then...

Hope this helps.

Randy
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:11 PM
LDBennett
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The problem definitely was the extractor. As the round moved up out of the magazine and onto the bolt face, it fell off the bolt cut for the rim because the extractor did not capture it. The jam was the round caught between the bolt face and the carrier forward ring extension, rim up. The only way to remove it was to pull the bolt carrier out of the gun. It was impossible to dig it out the ejection port. The extractor when tested failed correct operation.

The test of the extractor is to remove the bolt (on this upper you have to disassemble the bolt carrier to free the bolt), slip a loaded round up and under the extractor onto the bolt face cut for the rim. Gently shaking the bolt should NOT result in the round falling off the bolt face. This one did fail the test because the shape of the extractor body limited the extractor travel and the pressure the extractor could put on the rim/case body junction. A few strokes of a file to remove a small amount of metal on the extractor body (firing pin side) then allowed the extractor to travel farther. After this modification of the extractor the test was easily passed and reassembly showed perfect feeding of dummy rounds. Of course a range session is now required.

While it might seem normal to send the gun back to PSA, I don't work that way after self training myself on gunsmithing over the last 30 years. I understand how guns works and consequently can readily fix them. This extractor problem is common with many different guns because parts are no longer hand fitted by gunsmiths but assembled by assemblers only taught how to put them together with no knowledge of how they are suppose to work.

I will return here once I get through the range test. I will also hopefully get accuracy data for a few different ammos. With the little shooting I did do, it at least likes Federal AutoMatch.

LDBennett
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:57 PM
LDBennett
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The problem is lesser but still not perfectly solved. The gun and ammo did not like the Black Dog mag with plastic lips but they steel lipped version work 90% of the time. I will investigate further!

Tried several ammo's and all were about one inch at 50 yards.

The failure to feed is very aggravating because the errant round is stuck in the action, rim up which requires pulling the breech block out of the gun. I'll investigate that farther. This is all amplified by having to use a lower (for now) that is a fixed magazine conversion for the CA DOJ. This gun is going out of state and the lower I'll use there will not have a fixed magazine. Such a jam may be easier to overcome when the mag is more easily dropped.

LDBennett
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:59 PM
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How do you change the magazine lip version if it's fixed? I sure hope CA isn't how it'll be for the rest of us anytime soon.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:24 PM
LDBennett
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Its all a work around the law. Part of the basic definition of an CA AW is a detachable magazine. No detachable magazine then it its not an AW.

So the magazine is a normally (10 rounder in CA) latched into the lower with a regular mag latch but the button is blocked from being able to move to drop the mag. That is done with a button that has a small arm that reaches from the button face up onto the upper. That blocks the use of the button. But if you crack the gun open with the rear pin then that button arm no longer touches the upper and pushing the button drops the magazine. Every magazine change requires breaking the gun open by pulling the rear pin that locks the upper to the lower. The two halves only need to separate by about 1/2 inch or less. It is easier to do on the bench or while on a shooting rest.

There are other such systems that somehow tie the cracking of the gun with auto magazine drops with a lever system to pull that rear pin. I don't need fast reloads but my system (Patriot-Pin) meets the law and works good enough. But it really screws up trying to clear a jam easily. In this case I have to pull the bolt carrier out of the gun to unstick the 22 cartridge from the 22 mechanism.

I just now deepened the relief on the extractor that allows the extractor to reach around the bolt face. This is what I did before but apparently not enough. Another range trip is in order but....I am not all that happy with the Burris 4x Rimfire scope. It has a very shallow eye relief and is a bit low making getting my head behind it difficult. I finished ammo testing so I am going to pull that scope off and put my spare Burris red dot on the gun. The intended use for the gun is shooting cans, swingers and plinking at closer to 50 feet then 50 yards.

LDBennett
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:15 PM
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Are you commenting on centerfire 223/5.56, or 22LR?

Dedicated 22lr uppers on any lower is Ca. Legal with 10 round mags, And no bullet button required, Did the Ca.law change recently?
Paul


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Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
Its all a work around the law. Part of the basic definition of an CA AW is a detachable magazine. No detachable magazine then it its not an AW.

So the magazine is a normally (10 rounder in CA) latched into the lower with a regular mag latch but the button is blocked from being able to move to drop the mag. That is done with a button that has a small arm that reaches from the button face up onto the upper. That blocks the use of the button. But if you crack the gun open with the rear pin then that button arm no longer touches the upper and pushing the button drops the magazine. Every magazine change requires breaking the gun open by pulling the rear pin that locks the upper to the lower. The two halves only need to separate by about 1/2 inch or less. It is easier to do on the bench or while on a shooting rest.

There are other such systems that somehow tie the cracking of the gun with auto magazine drops with a lever system to pull that rear pin. I don't need fast reloads but my system (Patriot-Pin) meets the law and works good enough. But it really screws up trying to clear a jam easily. In this case I have to pull the bolt carrier out of the gun to unstick the 22 cartridge from the 22 mechanism.

I just now deepened the relief on the extractor that allows the extractor to reach around the bolt face. This is what I did before but apparently not enough. Another range trip is in order but....I am not all that happy with the Burris 4x Rimfire scope. It has a very shallow eye relief and is a bit low making getting my head behind it difficult. I finished ammo testing so I am going to pull that scope off and put my spare Burris red dot on the gun. The intended use for the gun is shooting cans, swingers and plinking at closer to 50 feet then 50 yards.

LDBennett
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:56 AM
LDBennett
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This lower is shared between 3 uppers: 223, 300 Blackout, and 22LR. While the 22LR version doesn't require this fixed magazine conversion, this lower gets used on the other calibers which do require fixed magazine to avoid AW registry.

This PSA 22LR upper is headed for an out of state vacation home where a removable magazine lower awaits it. But to test it here with what I have here in CA I have to use my CA legal fixed magazine lower. Except for the jams, it is not a big deal while shooting from a bench or table, which is the norm for me.

CA's liberal progressive legislature keeps adding new onerous gun and ammo laws with the end game of eliminating guns in this liberal bastion.

LDBennett
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:26 PM
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Got it LDBennett,
I went the dedicated lower route, I used compmags on the 223/5.56. And have a dedicated lower for the 22lr. It's a CMMG upper and is a great shooter with black dog mags,
And Yes, I agree, Things are getting rediculous for us law abiding citizens here in Ca. Am currently looking for some vacation property out of state as you have done.
Paul


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Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
This lower is shared between 3 uppers: 223, 300 Blackout, and 22LR. While the 22LR version doesn't require this fixed magazine conversion, this lower gets used on the other calibers which do require fixed magazine to avoid AW registry.

This PSA 22LR upper is headed for an out of state vacation home where a removable magazine lower awaits it. But to test it here with what I have here in CA I have to use my CA legal fixed magazine lower. Except for the jams, it is not a big deal while shooting from a bench or table, which is the norm for me.

CA's liberal progressive legislature keeps adding new onerous gun and ammo laws with the end game of eliminating guns in this liberal bastion.

LDBennett
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Old 04-28-2019, 10:06 AM
octanejunkie

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I have a PSA dedicated 22LR upper, no issues to feed or cycle with the better mag adapter and SW mags. Ammo I use is either Federal or CCI 36gr HV

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Old 04-28-2019, 10:14 AM
LDBennett
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PSA's web page recommends the use of Black Dog magazines. That is what I am using.

LDBennett
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