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Aluminum Tape Bedding for Bolts

49K views 88 replies 32 participants last post by  C.C. 
#1 ·
A Tutorial as requested by a number of people.

First let's get a couple of things out of the way so we do not have to argue about them later.

I am reticent to say I "invented" this process but when I first started doing it about 2002 I had never heard of it and I was still 4 years from finding RFC. For a long time after coming here I was doing this with new stocks but had not mentioned it until I told Ricochet about it. If you knew Ricochet he was not going to just leave it there and when we had the SuperStock forum he did every one of his rifles by one variation or another. If you have seen his targets it probably worked for him But it is highly likely other people had tried the same thing.

I normally see this process as a step between no bedding and full glass bedded rifles. Good old Ricochet saw it as an end process meaning he was happy to stop with the tape. I even sent him a glass bed kit but he never got around to using it in the 2 years or so he had it. I usually think of it as a fast way of getting a rifle to shoot to 90% of what is capable of if completely and correctly glass bedded.

So I think that it works. Does it work as well as "glass bed"? I do not think so but it is very close if you do it right and it is perfect for people like my friend Ricochet who seemed to be terrified of glass bedding a rifle. It is certainly easier than glass bedding, takes almost no prep time where glass bedding is preparation intensive to say the least!

Why do we bed stocks at all? Because from the factory there is a sloppy fit. Due to this sloppy fit every time you fire the gun it vibrates and these vibrations make the action move around in the stock. It the relationship between stock and action is not the same for every shot accuracy will suffer. To over simplify a rifle is accurate because as the barrel vibrates the bullet will leave the barrel in the same place of the vibration every time. If the barreled action is moving around in the stock it is impossible to create nearly identical vibrations and if the barrel is not vibrating the same it is impossible for the bullet to leave the barrel in the same place on the vibration. When we bed a rifle we are trying to marry the stock and barreled action as closely as possible.

So let's back up just a minute.....pillar bedding, What is it and why do you do it? First of all let's separate pillar "bedding" because pillar bedding is not truly bedding at all. It's MAIN function is to make it impossible to crush the wood or other stock material. Some people will argue about this and they are welcome to their points of view. Correctly putting pillars in a stock can not be a bad thing but it has little to do with bedding the entire action and possibly parts of the barrel which is what this discussion is all about.

Bedding a rifle is done to make a microscopic fit between the barreled action and the stock. In it's extreme like centerfire bench rest rifles the two are permanently glued together with epoxy That is a little extreme for us. "Glass Bedding" as it has been called is using various types of epoxies with either fiber glass or powdered metal fillers to make the stock and action as closely fitted as possible. A release agent is used to keep the two from being permanently locked together.

This is my version but like many other things there are many other was to do it. I would NEVER argue my way is best. It has been used successfully by a number of RFC people in semis but there are variations on a theme and more than one way to skin a cat.

Finally to this topic, aluminum tape bedding. With this very thin aluminum tape I cut many "shims" made of this tape and stack them until it is almost impossible to get the action into the stock. I shim both sides and the back of the action or stock.

Notice I said stack them and implied on the action but I have done it, in fact started doing it, by stacking them in the stock. On my 581 which will be the rifle bedded here I chose to put the shims in the stock partly because in the SuperStock version for semis I put it on the action and I wanted to show it working both ways. The tape sticks better to aluminum or steel. The only prep needed is to degrease the area so the tape sticks very well.

How do I know where to put the tape. When you take a bolt rifle apart you can often see where the wood is darkened, even black. That means the action has either compressed the wood or more likely has rubbed back and forth and this is what we are trying to stop by supporting the barrel action better in specific areas.

We are also going to take a shot at doing something about barrel support. The 581 is a single take down action with a long barrel. Even though the barrel is almost pencil thin it is a long lever and it offers a good opportunity for the barreled action to "teeter Totter in the stock. This is a nightmare for accuracy. To be honest I have not been real happy with this new to me 1967 Remington 581, a gun I have wanted for many years.

Before doing this the best accuracy I could get was 3/8" groups @25 yards with SK Standard Plus. As you will see we are going to help that out a little. So onto the next section:
 
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#3 ·
Thanks for this, Vincent... :bthumb:

Actually it's something I might be able to try myself, being too chicken (and suffering from a lack of opposable thumbs) to do a permanent epoxy job.

Question: what is this al-yoo-minium tape, and where would we find such a product? Is it sticky on one side, or just super thin AL only?

Comment: Looks like something even a klutz like me could attempt without screwing things up beyond repair! :D

:coolgleam
 
#4 ·
Not sure where I saw the idea of aluminum bedding first, but I am sure it was a thread on one of the forums here. Probably an old thread of yours Vincent.

I did a little tape bedding on a Remington 511. Seemed to help, but I made a lot of other changes at the same time so I can't say how much the tape helped specifically.

The tape I used came from one of the big box home improvement centers. Just look on the A/C aisle... it is aluminum duct tape. The brand is Nashua and part number is 324A. This tape is 2.1 mils thick. The adhesive sticks very well and is good down to -10 degrees F.

When I apply a layer of tape, I use a wood or plastic dowel to really press it down, especially around the edges. Try to work out any air bubbles and creases. Wipe down with an alcohol pad then apply the next layer.
 
#5 ·
Thanks Vincent! I have 2 50yd rolls of the stuff. I think I have just bout enough to bed my whole .22 collection.:rolleyes:
As a side note to those not in the know. this is the stuff you use to seal the seams in your home's duct work. Not that grey/silver plastic stuff used for everything else. The alum stuff will permanently and tightly seal duct work. You would be shocked at the amount of lost AC/heat from un tapped ducts.
Back to the bedding. So the inner tube contacts the barrel for damping correct.? Not free floated. Whoops missed the first sentence. No reply needed
 
#6 · (Edited)
Just like Aluminum foil with glue on one side. A aircraft mechanic friend gave me mine back in the 80's when I was racing to seal aerodynamic surfaces and such. For shooting even a small roll will last darn near a life time. Rolls are 2" wide. Once you have it you can invent any number of reasons for using it.

It really can make a big difference on how a rifle shoots and lets you play with different bedding schemes with out the permanence of glass bedding.
 
#11 ·
Just like Aluminum foil with glue on one side. A aircraft mechanic friend gave me mine back in the 80's we I was racing to seal aerodynamic surfaces and such. For shooting even a small roll will last darn near a life time. Rolls are 2" wide. Once you have it you can invent any number of reasons for using it.
FWIW, the aluminum tape that I have also came from an aircraft mechanic but is 3/4 " wide. I did not know that it came in 2" rolls. Like you said, it's very handy stuff and I'd like to get some in the 2" width.
 
#7 ·
Neat, guys!!!!!!

So, if I got this concept right.. the tape is to get the action tight and centered in the stock, the rubber pad(s) helps dampen the vibration and support the barrel just a tad. That's basically all there is to it? Way too simple!!! :D

Methinks next trip to the big box store might include a roll of bedding tape. Heck, a while ago I got some funny looks when I bought 5 #144 springs.. the clerk asked me what I wanted 5 of these odd springs for, so I told him they were for trigger jobs... :eek:hh:

Now if I can find one of the neighborhood kid's bicycles parked unattended, I might have the pressure pad bit worked out too!! :cool:

You guys have seen how most of my rifles shoot in many of the games & challenges here. not too shabby, but always have room for improvement :D It'll be a while before I try this out - I think I <will> give it a try.. I like simple & easy !!!

Thanks again, Vince... something I hadn't thought much about till now!

:bthumb:
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hope it helps. I do not remember what rifles you shoot. This can be done a number of ways but on this rifle it is just a simplified version of how I bed a Model 700 or 788 Remington as this rifle is more or less a mini 788 anyway:bthumb:

Chances are the more problems your rifle has the more it is going to help, the older the rifle is the more likely it is going to help if you find those black rub marks inside.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I have never used it on centerfires but a member here PM'd me and said he had seen it used on a shot gun to get the pattern more centered on where it was pointed. I think he said it was a .410 break open. I would expect that other than using it for barrel pressure points you may have to keep an eye on it as recoil may, or may not, move the tape around some and you will need to add second or even third "tune ups" as the recoil mashes the glue.

That is just a guess for me. I would certainly not be afraid to try it on a centerfire especially something like a 22 Hornet or a .223. That actually gives me an idea for using it on the forearm of my .223 T/C Contender "Super14" pistol.

That is the thing with this kind of bedding. Get an idea and 20 minutes later you are ready to test with out any permanent alteration to the firearm. Combine it with the rubber barrel supports and the possibilities are almost endless.

As far as the rubber supports if you want something thinner go to WalMart or elsewhere and buy a can of tire tube patches. They come already cut to small neat patches that are thinner for places where the inner tube is too thick.
 
#14 ·
They are in the shed and it is raining pretty good when I get a break I will bring them in......probably the next hour but the are tiny for someone that does not shoot groups I know that.

Screw it I'll just get wet. I'll go get them now.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Individual holes are right on .220 -.222 so I will use .221 to subtract from out side measurement and the first group with the barrel still full of Federal crud is:

.535" "Which is pretty close to the average group before"

.206" for second group including called flier. 4 shots into .060":rolleyes:

.156" For third group. One triangular hole.

That is with crappy front rest, no rear bag and shooting off a picnic table I hate to shoot off of so Andrew did a good job for a quick first test. I will play with moving the barrel support and Torque values because this was just screwed together with a screw driver not even knowing what it will want for torque.

Way better than it shot before from a shooting bench with a Cowan front rest and rabbit eared rear bag.
 
#18 ·
Mighty nice improvement !! :bthumb:

I'm liking this idea more and more :D

:coolgleam
 
#19 ·
Hey Vincent! Your alum tape bedding helped in another way today. I've got a nice, old Savage Model 19 Match that had the correct rear receiver sight but the wrong front. The gun shot 6" high at 50yds. So luck was with me at the big fall gunshow Sunday. I found the very rare front sight that goes with this set up. Problem was it was loose in the dove tail. Slid right in/out. After reading all the advise on mutilating the sight base or slot, I cut 3 tape shims, stuck them to the sight base and VOILA! Nice TIGHT tap in fit. No damage to either surface. :bthumb:
 
#20 · (Edited)
You would not believe how many things I have used the tape for. It is also great for shimming scope mounts when a rifle shoots too high or two high.

I used in in places on my Karts going back 30 years. I figured if it was good enough for the Space Shuttle it was okay for me.

I used it for a sunshade on my face shields on my full face helmets and looked much better than duct tape and was easier to clean up.

I have used it for making gaskets.

I used it in places on my Baja Bug to keep fine desert dry lake powder like dust out.

I have used it to temporary repair inflatable mattresses.

After my Quality Control career I did consulting and teaching in many industries teaching "Lean Manufacturing" "Statistical Process Control" ISO 9000 compliance and similar things. One company I worked at was called Laminated Shims in Anaheim, CA. They made shims of aluminum laminated together for the aerospace industry. They would make huge blocks of this stuff and the machine them to fit places on different aircraft. Picture how long a Boeing 747 wing is. Because of "stacked tolerances" they could end up with a wing several inches longer than another one yet all the pieces be in spec. What to do? Laminated Shims made peel off shims for the wing roots of many passenger jets. Right wing 4" shorter than the left? No problem! Peel off the correct amount of amount of laminated shim stock and put that stack at the root of the wing!!
 
#22 ·
So I am addit.....er.....creative with the stuff.

Did crack me up when I went to Laminated Shim in about 1997 or so and looked around and told those guys "Hey I have been doing this for years!!"

You should have seen the giant milling machines they used to mill shims the were probably 15-20 feet long:eek:
 
#23 ·
I use a similar method that produces very good results in a non-permanent application. This came from something I had on hand as well. Being frugal, I hate to pay the price H-D charges for replacement gaskets so I make my own. I have several materials and thicknesses on hand to experiment with.
When I got a Boyds Rimfire Hunter stock for my Marlin XT-22, I found it was inletted to accommodate the various 800, 900, and XT series actions and milled for a heavy barrel.
The front action lug on these rifles is fitted in a loose dovetail that will drift laterally until tightened, making a tight action to stock fit even more critical.
I ended up using some 1/32" low compression rubber/fiber gasket material to fill the unused inletting and stabilize the action and recoil lug areas. Attached with a few dots of super glue.


This worked out very well with a tight, motion free mount.
I'd like to try this with the old hard cork gasket material, but that stuff has become very scarce and I'm saving what I have for the oil wasters.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I believe some of the Anshutz rifles had a cork gasket like bedding material. I have read about it but never seen it is person.

I really like what you have done with the bedding of this rifle:bthumb:

Is this material something you can get in automotive stores?
 
#25 ·
My CZ 452 TH Varmint had lateral wiggle at the rear of the receiver. I did the Vincent fix. No more wiggle. I also used the inner tube at the muzzle end without improvement. I removed it and then removed the barrel lug. Still no movement but five shot groups at 50 yards with scope off bag in front and bunny ears in the rear with Federal Premium Ultra Match down to
.19"

I purchased a Norinco JW-15 very used to pillar bed it since I didn't want to do it on the Varmint for a first attempt.

Thank you Vincent.
 
#27 ·
I have been following this thread with great interest. Thanks to "vincent" for the fine work and great information. Lots of time and effort to post this kind of detail of one's work.

Now to my problem which I think may be solved by following what others have done in this thread. I have a Savage MKII BTVS about 3 years old, I am the original owner. It has shot very good at times but never really consistent over time. I have done the obvious things, floated barrel, torque settings, ammo testing and heavy bottom metal plate from DIP. Used three different known good scopes and the crown looks excellent.

Today I used some lipstick to mark the bottom of the action studs, the receiver and tang (well, the rear of the receiver) as well as the bottom of the barrel forward of the receiver. I placed the action back in the stock, torqued to 16 in/lbs, front and rear, then removed the action. What I found was that the receiver only touches the stock on the left side, at the rear and at the very front on the bottom. The action studs do not contact the stock on the bottom and the barrel does not touch the stock at any point.

I believe this may the source of my inconsistent POI of this rifle. The barrel has also always lined up to the right of center although it is floated.

I want to use the tape method to bed the action as I don't really trust myself to use the standard devon method and the tape can be removed/added very easily.

I think I should add tape to the right side of the stock and in the bottom where the action studs should touch the stock. So does this sound like the route to go or ???? Thanks.
 
#28 · (Edited)
These things are " try and find out" sorts of things. It definitely sounds like a more even support would help and I think you are on the right track.

Also there is the possibility that the stock is never going to give you what you want. We used to have a saying in racing:

"You can wash a dog"
"You can brush a dog, you can put a ribbon in it's hair"
"When you are done it is still a dog"

Now please do not take insult from that I am just saying there are some wounds too large to Band Aid.

I would proceed just as you suggested. I would definitely try a barrel support of rubber of some kind and try to even up the contacts Having things so unbalanced in the bed can not be helping you. If you try it and it does not work the first time re do the lip stick and see where you are.

I am very interested to hear what happens so please post your results and then we can go from there. Best of luck with it.

Oh....the barrel being off center in the stock? If it is not touching one side then it probably does not matter except visually. BEFORE you proceed on everything else try wrapping the barrel with black electrician's tape so it barely fits into the barrel channel and then putting it in the stock and see if that changes where things touch. Maybe the thing is just going into the stock crooked.

Anyway good luck and let us know. Maybe we can work this out together:):bthumb:
 
#29 · (Edited)
These things are " try and find out" sorts of things. It definitely sounds like a more even support would help and I think you are on the right track.

Also there is the possibility that the stock is never going to give you what you want. We used to have a saying in racing:

"You can wash a dog"
"You can brush a dog, you can put a ribbon in it's hair"
"When you are done it is still a dog"

Now please do not take insult from that I am just saying there are some wounds to large to Band Aid.

I would proceed just as you suggested. I would definitely try a barrel support of rubber of some kind and try to even up the contacts Having things so unbalanced in the bed can not be helping you. If you try it and it does not work the first time re do the lip stick and see where you are.

I am very interested to hear what happens so please post your results and then we can go from there. Best of luck with it.

Oh....the barrel being off center in the stock? If it is not touching one side then it probably does not matter except visually. BEFORE you proceed on everything else try wrapping the barrel with black electrician's tape so it barely fits into the barrel channel and then putting it in the stock and see if that changes where things touch. Maybe the thing is just going into the stock crooked.

Anyway good luck and let us know. Maybe we can work this out together:):bthumb:
First, no insult taken. It was kind of a "WOW" when I saw how badly the action was fitting in the stock. My first thought was "maybe this stock cannot be fixed". I have already started putting tape in the stock and will update as I find something positive or negative. I feel it can't hurt to try this, I won't know until I try. I can always get another stock.

As soon as I can (if) get the action to sit evenly in the stock I'll shoot the rifle. Previously I was shooting 5 shot 1/2" groups @50yd with Wolf MT and then next time out 3/4-1" in the same conditions. I have 2 other stocks from Boyd's identical to this one and the actions fit great in a CZ and Marlin. Thanks again and I don't plan on giving up. Thanks for your offer of help, I may need it.

UPDATE: After 2 layers of tape on the left side of the stock (length of the receiver) and 7 layers on the right side I know have passed the lipstick test. Interestingly the barrel is now centered in the barrel channel of the stock. I'll be shooting next Monday to see if I have any success. I'll try it with and without the pad at the front of the stock under the barrel. Anticapating improvement but won't be disappointed if there is none. The reason is that I think this stock was inletted improperly from the git go.

Here is what I have done so far. I stopped here as I want to do this in steps, testing as I go.

 
#30 · (Edited)
Results after Aluminum Tape Bedding

I don't have any targets to post that are prior to bedding but my normal 5 shot groups with this rifle and Wolf MT/SK Std + ammo was 3/4" with an occasional 1/2" group. The picture is today's shooting after bedding. The lowest shot was either me or the ammo. I probably caused it after seeing the first 4 shots go into virtually the same hole. I must admit I was excited. There is no question that the bedding greatly improved this rifle. In addition I was able to shoot some Aguila Pistol Match and Federal 711B into 3/4" 5 shot groups which previously would be 1-1 1/2" groups with the 711B being the least accurate. I also tried a pad under the barrel at the fore end of the stock. Groups got a little worse so removed it. Seems this barrel wants to be totally floated.

My hat is off to "Vincent" for his posting of this method for bedding. I have been messing with this rifle for over 2 years with little to no improvement. No question that the inletting of the stock was the problem. I now have a rifle that I can enjoy shooting rather than feeling frustration everytime I would shoot it.

 
#31 ·
Man that is GREAT news. I am so glad you kept at it. I would still experiment with a barrel support but what an improvement.

I know the feeling you had so well. All of sudden the thing seems to come to life and you are on your way:D:bthumb:

I am just very excited for you. Kind of the same thing that happened with my 581 Rem with almost identical bedding. I think on the Remington bedding the "tang" or rear of the stock helped too but I have to get back to experimenting......so many project and so little time and a body that can only handle so much loading and unloading to go to the range.

Just a reminder: After a couple weeks go back and add a strip or two to the existing tape because it will settle.

You do not know what kind of a smile and a charge I just got. I just walked in from being at Vanderbilt University Hospital for a treatment and it has been a long day already. Fired up the computer and did a search for the threads I have posted in and this was the first thing I saw!! That is just great. I know how happy it makes me so You must be pumped but we also still have work to do, experiments to try to see how far you can take it and to make sure the results are repeatable. Just the same this is a great first indication things are going in the right direction.

You may also want to keep a few notes as to when and how much kind of thing as you experiment. I keep many of my notes right on my targets when I do not get too lazy:eek::eek:

Looks like your "dog" may be a prince of a pup yet:rolleyes::D

As before if I can help in any way just let me know:D:D:bthumb:
 
#32 ·
Thanks Vincent, but credit to you I was just the installer. I ran out of time and ability to call "cease fires" at my range so I couldn't shoot a bunch of groups. That's my next step, test consistency. But I can tell you I had a huge smile on my face shooting that group, almost split my lips. What a relief.

You saved me from buying a new stock or selling this rifle as I was really, really disappointed and frustrated. Thanks for the suggestion to add some more tape down the road, that'll save me from scratching my head wondering what happened when the tape settled.

Believe me I am happy that you are happy with my success. Take care and mucho thanks again.
 
#34 ·
Thanks from me as well, Vincent. :bthumb:

I recently bought a Zastava MP22 and after shooting it some I believed it needed bedding. Horizontal strings, etc. It would shoot an amazing group, and the very next one would be all over the place. :mad: You likely know the stocks and inletting on the Zastavas are not the best. So I started putting your tape method to work and the difference is easy to notice, even after just one session. I still need to recheck my work after today's range trip but I'm already very, very pleased!
 
#35 ·
Thanks from me as well, Vincent. :bthumb:

I recently bought a Zastava MP22 and after shooting it some I believed it needed bedding. Horizontal strings, etc. It would shoot an amazing group, and the very next one would be all over the place. :mad: You likely know the stocks and inletting on the Zastavas are not the best. So I started putting your tape method to work and the difference is easy to notice, even after just one session. I still need to recheck my work after today's range trip but I'm already very, very pleased!
I am so glad to hear that you guys are getting something out of this. I've been doing it for years and now I wish I had written that sooner. Several of the SuperStock guys have been using it and Ricochet would only use it because he was scared of regular bedding. I even sent him a bedding kit and he stayed with the tape.
 
#36 · (Edited)
A quickie update on the 581. Last time out I was shooting very badly and the rifle still had the Heavy Trigger in it which is what brought me back to this Stickie.

I was kicking my self later but I shot some 50 yard groups with it. I was starting to formulate a plan the replace the skinny long barrel with either a Green Mountain Heavy Taper or a Fedderson 10/22 Sporter. It would really not be that tough to do. Would go from .625 24 inch barrel to a 17-19 inch barrel that has a straight taper ending in a .750" muzzle. Pretty easy if you have a lathe and the fat end in .920 which would have matched up nicely to the 1.010" action leaving an attractive .040" step from action to barrel and eliminating the plastic sight base and shroud to make it look nice.

Anyway just before graycrait and I left the range I shot some 50 yard groups that appeared to be quite a bit less than the 25 yard groups used to be. I had forgotten all about the great groups Andrew had shot at the last test months ago. I was shocked to see how well this 581 is shooting with the tape/rubber bedding!:D:bthumb:

When it was time to come home I was, quite honestly, in way too much pain to walk out to 50 and get the targets. graycrait had already done so much to help me I was too embarrassed to ask him to get them:eek::eek::( Sometimes being in constant pain sucks.

The reason I came back here was to get the address for a post in Remington on a little trigger work I did on this stiff trigger. All I did was replace the sear spring on the 581 with a"Ernie The Gunsmith" spring. If you have a 580, 581, 582 or a centerfire 788 look into this spring. What a difference! You can get them and many other things at:

www.erniethegunsmith.com.

I have no connection with them and they do not even know who I am. Just a good product for fellow Remington guys:bthumb:

I got all fumble fingered so it took 15 minutes but it should have taken less than 10 and I think it was $6.95 which is a lot for a tiny spring but it is very cheap for the improvement in the trigger.

Remember all your bolt action Remingtons are legal in the SuperStock Forum and I would truly love to see you guys posting your rifles over there and playing our games if you like it! They are NOT competition just games to play. PLEASE drop buy and check it out:bthumb:

 
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