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  #1  
Old 07-31-2019, 11:37 AM
John45
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Observations on Barrel Tuning



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First off, I'm very new at RFBR shooting. I have a very good rifle, or it should be, and a Pappas rest. I was less than impressed with the Hopewell method because it seemed there were too many shots in the ranges used that I felt a good tune could be lost in the mid ranges of that recommended method. That's my engineering brain working I guess.

Well I did use the Hopewell on my first attempt and feel my worries about it were justified as I could not really determine what the best range was to narrow the testing down. Spent a lot of time an a lot of ammo chasing what MIGHT be the right area to further test. Now I know some of you could figure that out but I couldn't.

So I looked at the sticky above my Mozella. It's long and detailed but it made sense. three shots into each bull using one turn at a time. Now I can see what's really happening with each 25 clicks of the tuner. I didn't do all the plotting etc just eyeballed the results, it really is obvious. I did mic some groups in the area that showed promise however just out of curiosity.

now I feel I really found a good area to further test and refine those results. In my way of thinking, if three shots were not going to be in about the same hole, or close to it, it was not something to look at. With 10 shots, as in the Hopewll method, fired at the same bull you can miss some sweet spots.

If you're struggling with this tuning game look at Mozella's sticky and try it. He was using a Lowey tuner, I am using a Harrell. For me it was just what I was needing to help me. The first full range of the test used 51 rounds. Now it's down to refining the results which look extremely promising.

One other thing. I was also seeing how a J&J slide worked compared to the bare Harrell. So I did the test twice. While it's far from scientific, from just looking at the results using just the bare tuner and the tuner with the Harrell it definitely showed a tightening of almost all groups with the Slide. But what caught my attention was the sweet spot range shown with the slide I got the same sweet spot range without the slide. But the group was slightly tighter with the slide.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:43 PM
ammohog
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The Purdy Prescription

I don't know what kind of rifle you have, this seem to work for a lot of shooters. It got me close enough to fine tune without using a brick (or two) of ammo. I did try the Hopewell method, and they both seem to work to some extent. The only thing I noticed about getting caught up in finding a tune is you might exceed the "window of accuracy" for specified rifle. Or, missed complete seasoning of the barrel by several shots, causing you to "miss" the tune when fine tuning. Tuning my rifle(s) turned out to be an adventure! (In humility. ) Best of luck! .... from a rookie..... AH

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...d.php?t=544427
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  #3  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:06 PM
John45
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I have two rifles. The first one I started with is a 1913 with a Stith stock and PRX tuner. I got the tuner from Killough with it set to the PRX length. that has worked well. I shortly later, when I decided i really like this, got a rifle smithed by Richard Gorham. It's the Gorham rifle I'm working with now. I let others use the 1913 if they want to try out BR.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:16 PM
vlnbyr

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I know there are thousands of shooters tuning their rifles and spending megabucks on ammo. What I would like to see is any meaningful data, statistically sound, that shows any of these tunes being the BEST tune for that rifle.
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:24 AM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
I know there are thousands of shooters tuning their rifles and spending megabucks on ammo. What I would like to see is any meaningful data, statistically sound, that shows any of these tunes being the BEST tune for that rifle.
John, You pose a very interesting question. if I may ask what or how do you determine that a rifle is tuned.
what must you see to be satisfied that the rifle is tuned

Lee
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:16 AM
vlnbyr

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Lee I'm not sure this question has an answer. First you need 100% neutral conditions preferably over multiple sessions. Then you need to shoot a significant number of shots at each setting(500). Then throw in some weights and bloops at each setting. One expert I know thinks the minimum number of shots is 25/ and 100/ to be sure so right there the whole process could take in excess of 100,000 rounds. Then consider the possibility that after all this the numbers show there really isn't a difference no matter what you do and it's the process of adding the tuner that does the job. I feel like Moses wandering the desert.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:24 AM
vlnbyr

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Lee...After some thought this question does have an answer even though it will be different for each and everyone of us. You do the best you can with what you have and that's where you roll. John
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:42 AM
ammohog
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Let's try 50 Yards

How do you determine that a rifle is tuned? I'll turn this into a multiple choice:

1) When your groups are large.

2) When your groups start to get smaller.

3) When your groups are as small as they can get with selected match ammo.

4) When your groups are as small as they can get, and stay that way with any match ammo.

5) When the barrel will "wait" for you.

6) None of the above.

7) Some of the above.

8) All of the above.

9) Only Lee knows, and he ain't telling.

Last edited by ammohog; 08-01-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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  #9  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:00 AM
John45
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Boy, I'm glad I didn't bring up the stopped barrel vs PC thing. all I tried to do was show something for those who struggle with this tuning thing and give them some idea on what might work for them like it did for me.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:14 AM
ammohog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John45 View Post
Boy, I'm glad I didn't bring up the stopped barrel vs PC thing.
Hi John45: Glad you found something that works for your rifle! I was just joking with Lee about his question about your findings. HA! I did read your first post several times, and it's a good post. Later Gator....... AH

Fixed it!

Last edited by ammohog; 08-01-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:36 AM
John45
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Thanks, that's why I mentioned the stopped barrel thing. Lee has an opinion on that and I was trying to get him on that one. He knows a lot about this game and I like to ask him questions. No BS guy and always helpful.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:40 PM
thesandman
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How do I know barrel is tuned? It shoots better there than anywhere else. How do i find that tune? Shoot very expensive ammo for what seems like forever and then settle on best. 3 [email protected] mark, if last two go in one hole I may try more, perhaps 5, still good, five more. Often the best groups are not repeatable. That means you keep going. It's not uncommon to shoot 1 and 1/2 bricks or more. Two of my tuners (JNL)go below zero almost a full revolution and up to 400 but are pretty shaky past 350. That's 375 marks times say 4 shots starting with Purdy rx to get ya close. Then guys tell ya lighter is better so ya start over with next smaller weight. Would like once to hit it close right off the bat. Yes I have lots to learn.
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2019, 07:49 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
Lee...After some thought this question does have an answer even though it will be different for each and everyone of us. You do the best you can with what you have and that's where you roll. John
Yes I agree, you do what you can with what you have. I would say the most simplistic answer would be when the rifle shoots consistently and it doesn't mean the smallest groups, but the most consistent.
who wants a rifle that will shoot sub-.200 but only 2 or maybe 3 times out of 10 groups shot, and have fliers that blow them out to .500 or more
I rather have a rifle that will shoot all 10 groups that will be in the .300 or .400 as I will always know what the widest margin of error I have to adjust with.
might not be the best scoring rifle, but I bet it would out score the one that will
have blow outs to .500 or more especially if the you are shooting in a condition.

anyway, that is my opinion and what I look for when tuning.

Lee
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  #14  
Old 08-01-2019, 08:18 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John45 View Post
Thanks, that's why I mentioned the stopped barrel thing. Lee has an opinion on that and I was trying to get him on that one. He knows a lot about this game and I like to ask him questions. No BS guy and always helpful.
Hi John,

If you go to rimfireaccurcy.com Kevin Nevius answered a question I had with some very informative information.
if anyone has ever talked to me about tuning the one thing I try and explain is tuning is barrel timing. Kevin with his answer put in words that I have had a hard time trying to explain what I think is going on.

This is also why I been a advocate of using the least amount of weight on the barrel, I believe it helps to maximize this barrel timing and help the barrel reach what I call peak rise, I believe this is one reason I am seeing very good improvements as to how my rifles shoot. and my rifles were shooting really good IMO with weights.

but this is just part of tuning, how a rifle recoils and how fast it moves back from a standing position on a rest also affects this barrel timing, as it will change how much IMO the barrel will rise and affect timing.
now the question would be, ok how do you determine the rate of recoil is best, I am afraid the only way is to shoot and experiment. I got it down for my rifles where about 10-lbs. pull weight using a suit-case scale is about what my rifles like.
this is just some of the things that effect a tune and tuning. as I said go read Kevin's answer and you will get an idea of what can affect finding a good tune.

as for a stopped muzzle, I use to think Bill Calfee meant having the barrel stop at the same spot when the barrel rose as a round was fired, however he plainly said not too long ago the barrel doesn't move period. and for positive compensation not sure what that is, as I don't know to what parameters does the slow ,fast rounds have to shoot to be actual PC?

I do believe when you do find the setting for that particular barrel/rifle it will shoot in various conditions and you do not need to touch the tuner.

Lee
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  #15  
Old 08-01-2019, 08:27 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammohog View Post
How do you determine that a rifle is tuned? I'll turn this into a multiple choice:

1) When your groups are large.

2) When your groups start to get smaller.

3) When your groups are as small as they can get with selected match ammo.

4) When your groups are as small as they can get, and stay that way with any match ammo.

5) When the barrel will "wait" for you.

6) None of the above.

7) Some of the above.

8) All of the above.

9) Only Lee knows, and he ain't telling.
As I explained in another post look for consistency, and not the smallest groups it can shoot.
don't settle on a setting that may shoot a few wallet groups, but majority of the time have blow out fliers. this is not in tune

Lee
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