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  #61  
Old 12-28-2010, 05:06 PM
cowboy4
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Standing only:

82-0X (its darn hard to completely eliminate that 10 ring for a X)
Smallbore, T-Class
Remington 40-X, Weaver T-10, Jewell Trigger, WMT ammo
A17 (50 ft)
It finally warmed up to a "balmy" 33 degrees, so out I went for a couple of targets (I'm also shooting in a smallbore silhouette postal using TQ-14 targets). I've not "stood on my hind legs" and shot this heavy beast for some time and it shows. Especially target #10.
Supposed to be warmer tomorrow. If so, I'll drag out the Olympic sighted 40-X and maybe my Ultra-Lux.
  #62  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:19 PM
situation_normal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollar Bill View Post
Looking at your targets, your sighters and the majority of your shots are low on the targets in all stages. Do you shoot some sighters after you adjust the sights?
As much as I know that I should be, not as often as I know I should.

If you go back and look at all three weeks that I have done this, you'll notice that every shot that I have taken has been low. That's what helped prompt the 6 o'clock hold question. What's odd though is that when I shoot it off the bench in a "lead sled" I can shoot 10's all day long. So I know that the rifle is zero'd on a rest.

Now I know that I am seriously lacking the mad skills needed for this match, but does POA/POI really change that much when not in a rest?
  #63  
Old 12-28-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by situation_normal
Now I know that I am seriously lacking the mad skills needed for this match, but does POA/POI really change that much when not in a rest?
Iron sights are highly dependent on eye position, unlike (correctly adjusted) scopes.
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  #64  
Old 12-28-2010, 11:34 PM
situation_normal
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SilentPea, they're not "open" iron sights. I'm using an aperture set-up (the ones in my avatar). Do you think that the tweaking of the stock while using the sling could have anything to do with them all being low? It's not currently "fully" floated, or yet to be bedded. It's the consistancy of shooting low that has me contemplating this.
  #65  
Old 12-29-2010, 01:52 AM
Dollar Bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by situation_normal View Post
As much as I know that I should be, not as often as I know I should.

If you go back and look at all three weeks that I have done this, you'll notice that every shot that I have taken has been low. That's what helped prompt the 6 o'clock hold question. What's odd though is that when I shoot it off the bench in a "lead sled" I can shoot 10's all day long. So I know that the rifle is zero'd on a rest.

Now I know that I am seriously lacking the mad skills needed for this match, but does POA/POI really change that much when not in a rest?
It sure does. I shoot off a standard front/rear rest so the rifle "free-recoils". Field shooting, I always have to adjust the rear sight higher because holding the forend with or without a sling, causes the round to impact lower because I'm limiting or delaying muzzle rise. Even shooting from a bench, using a sling and grasping the forend, steading the forend/hand against something will generally result in a different POI then shooting from positions. Floating the barrel won't change this.

Looking at your targets, it looks to me as if you have plenty of skill for this, you just need to adjust your sights based on your sighters. I mark my "mechanical zero" on my sights, then write down the sight adjustments made for each position. This is where a "shooting log" pays dividends.

One other thing about adjusting sights: If you have older, maybe slightly worn or cheaper sights like I do, I always approach the adjustments from the same direction, up and right (that's just personal preference). So, if I have to make an adjustment left 2 clicks, I go 3 left then back 1. That way, you are always taking any play or backlash into account the same way, FWIW.
  #66  
Old 12-29-2010, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by situation_normal
Do you think that the tweaking of the stock while using the sling could have anything to do with them all being low?
While this sling could be an issue, I'd be more inclined to say the issue lies with the differences between "lead sled" and shoulder. Try to sight in while slung up in the prone position (instead of on the bench) and I'll bet ALL of your positions will benefit. Then you can test out sighting in for each of the different positions

edit Dollar Bill beat me.... I agree with what he says.

Last edited by SilentPea; 12-29-2010 at 01:57 AM. Reason: see post
  #67  
Old 12-29-2010, 09:58 AM
situation_normal
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Thanks for the help Dollar Bill and SilentPea. I'm shooting again this evening so I'll let you knwo how I did in a day or so.

I think that tonight I am going ot spend more time shooting sighters in an attempt to get this rifle sighted in during positions. The explination of free-recoiling and limiting/delaying the muzzle rise make a lot of sense to me. So this seems like a good place to start.

A buddy that I have been shooting with, lent me his copy of the CMP's high power three position instructional DVD's. I've only yet watched the first on covering offhand, but there was a fairly long portion that covered mechanical zero. His approcah is the same as yours... Find it and base everything from there.
  #68  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:27 AM
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305-3X (88-1X, 38-0X, 92-1X, 87-1X) - Situation Normal, WA
NRA Light Rifle, C-Class, Marksman 1st Class.
CZ Ultra Lux with BRNO target sights, and a "?" lb trigger pull.
CCI SV
A-17, 50" indoors


I took y'alls advice tonight, and shot a bunch more sighter shots. I think it helped too. That is until I shot offhand. I'm still wobbling all over the place. I also started a shooter log (thanks Dollar Bill). I was surprised to see how many clicks it took to get this rifle sighted in from a zero base point.


Prone


Offhand


Sitting


Kneeling

Last edited by situation_normal; 12-30-2010 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Re-arranged the order
  #69  
Old 12-30-2010, 01:43 AM
23's Dad
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Way to hang in there!

Situation Normal -

Nice improvement! You really added some points to your best score!
  #70  
Old 12-30-2010, 01:59 AM
23's Dad
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Unhappy My last outing of the year

But a personal best!

326-1X (96, 74, 90-1X, 66) - 23's Dad, CA
Smallbore, C-Class, Marksman 1st Class
Remingon 40X (standard barrel), Winchester X-pert Bulk ammo, Redfield Olympic Rear sight, Tigersight front, Factory Trigger
50-ft Indoors

316-6X (94-3X, 56, 86-1X, 80-2X) - 23's Dad, CA
Smallbore, C-Class, Marksman 1st Class
Remingon 37, Winchester X-pert Bulk ammo, Remingtion Factory M37 rear sight, Tigersight front, Factory Trigger
50-ft Indoors

Edit: I goofed on the math. The 40X score should have been 326. This is the first time I outshot my M37 using the 40X. It helps to be first up! Also, as I was updating the Rattle Board today, my spreadsheet showed that I made 2 strikes toward Sharpshooter! Yeah!

I was studying the Way of the Rifle, and I noticed that most of the illustrations showed the shooters using a canted rifle in the offhand position. I gave it a try, and it really seemed to help. I let the rifle cant in the kneeling position too. Now I want to find out how much I should cant the rifle, and how much is just gangsta'

I also printed out the CMP shooter's notebook, and started getting more data logged. I decided to tighten my sling one notch too. It seemed to help, because I did increase my score and X count.

It really motivates me to know that you guys are all working on this too. I see scores like the one from erenner, and I wonder if I'll ever get there. Then Situation Normal starts barking at my back door, and I realize I better hurry up!

40X Targets:
Prone

OH

Sitting

Kneeling


M37 Targets:
Prone

OH

Sitting

Kneeling

Last edited by 23's Dad; 12-31-2010 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Correct math, and add text.
  #71  
Old 12-30-2010, 08:14 AM
cowboy4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23's Dad View Post
I was studying the Way of the Rifle, and I noticed that most of the illustrations showed the shooters using a canted rifle in the offhand position. I gave it a try, and it really seemed to help. I let the rifle cant in the kneeling position too. Now I want to find out how much I should cant the rifle, and how much is just gangsta'
Just consider canting to be part of the NPA you build for each position. You may have less or none (prone comes to mind) for one position or another. Just adjust your sights accordingly, and be as consistent as you can for each position.

Congrats on your PR.
  #72  
Old 12-30-2010, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by situation_normal View Post
305-3X (38-0X, 88-1X, 92-1X, 87-1X) - Situation Normal, WA
NRA Light Rifle, C-Class, Marksman 1st Class.
CZ Ultra Lux with BRNO target sights, and a "?" lb trigger pull.
CCI SV
A-17, 50" indoors
Posting all these great scores you all motivated me to go to that indoor range. I'll try to go today or tomorrow.

I had a flu the last couple of days and we had a huge snow storm earlier in the week and couldn't drive anywhere (you probably have seen it in the news). But no excuses now ... well, maybe work, but it's slow this week.

Btw situation_normal, I think you posted the score using the old order (standing first). Could you post it (Prone, Standing, Sitting, Kneeling) and shot in that order as well. I understand that's how it's shot in NRA tournaments and helps 23's Dad having consistant order when he enters the scores into the scoring table. Thanks
  #73  
Old 12-30-2010, 09:51 AM
situation_normal
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Thanks y'all

It's been a lot of fun shooting this, and I am totally looking forward to the next few weeks where I expect that I'll see the majority of the "larger" improvements to my score. Once I have a better understanding of each positions basics, I think that the scores will slow down some.
  #74  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:06 AM
Dollar Bill
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Well, tomorrow will be my first chance to shoot. I only have one range, outdoors, available to me. Should be fun. I have 3 rifles, but I've only shot one, a CZ Varmint with a Mueller scope. The other 2 are a Winchester 52C and a Mossberg 144LS that I'm finishing some trigger work on today. Range opens @ 10 and I'll be there. Should have some scores to post tomorrow night. I'll be shooting 50 yds with the A23 target. After having not shot position in 24 years, I should be setting a new all-time low.

Chris, great job. You're getting there. This log page has a place for calling your shot. It might help on your off-hand scores. http://www.cobs.com/lprgc/gif/cmpl3.pdf
Try shooting during the respiratory pause, but not with you lungs half full, more like naturally empty. Hold above or below the target, expell the air from your lungs, bring the POA on target, and squeeze. http://www.cobs.com/lprgc/gif/cmpl3.pdf

Last edited by Dollar Bill; 04-01-2011 at 08:55 PM.
  #75  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:47 AM
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Hello all.. back from vacation (physically, anyway)...
I shot so many sighters for a number of reasons: 1) warm up the barrel (I usually shoot 5 rounds into the back stop before moving to the paper) and 2) the rifle wasn't mine and needed to get used to the squeeze 3) any adjustments necessary to the sites.
Typically, once you come out of prone you really should not adjust the sites any more. I shoot sighters in the other positions to make sure my gadgets are set up correctly (butt hook is right height and angle, hand-stop in correct position, and my strap is correct).

If you shot prone and are sighted in, but you observe consistency (7's @ 9) in your other positions, it's a positional issue and not a sight issue. Even the smallest change in position can have a huge impact. That you were consistently left at 9, try pointing your forward foot/tow (the leg upon which your elbow is resting), an inch to the right (inward) and try again. Also, really important, is finding the groove between your knee cap and the tendon of your leg. Rest your elbow in there, consistently.

I'm not sure if you're shooting with a jacket, strap, etc. but there are a number of things to be tweaked there too.

Happy New Year!
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