Is Smallbore Position Shooting Dead? - Page 4 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 10-16-2010, 10:06 PM
sparks1
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2008
Location: 
land of 10,000 Lakes
Posts: 
275
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)


Log in to see fewer ads
A good idea for my M75 Winchester. Not a 52 but what the heck. Good reason to shoot some indoors this winter.

Whats the range 25m or longer???

Will keep checking on this one,
  #47  
Old 10-16-2010, 10:27 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Distance will likely be 50ft or 50 yds, your choice (different target size of course).

Last edited by CZ452UltraLux; 10-20-2010 at 12:34 PM.
  #48  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:58 PM
nimrodf

Join Date: 
Jun 2010
Location: 
Fort Wayne Indiana
Posts: 
102
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Lightbulb

CZ452Utlralux,

I think your proposals are sound, well thought out and work able.

My only thoughts are that the sling shouldn't count against the weight limit, at least in the CMP matches you don't have to have sling on at weight in. As far posting targets could we cut the 23/5's up into scannable chunks and post them that way? The targets have a number next to them so it's be pretty clear which was which. There's always going to be a level of trust required in that everybody understands the match results rely on folks being honest so we shouldn't have to worry about "substitution of better targets" in the postings.

I think 23's dad has some good points especially if we want to use the match to go into the NRA scoring system, but at the moment comprehension of the details is beyond me. As far as peeps having to shoot with the scopes, I don't think it's too big of deal. That's what we have to do in the CMP matches so it's not any different.

Who knows, maybe this 4 position/offhand virtual postal match will spark a renaissance in small bore shooting. It could be really neat to shoot against folks not only from around the US but from around the world. (although the would mean we'd have to use the reduced 50M targets so everybody could compete). This has real possibilities in my deranged mind. We could have "Team USA" take on the Aussies who would then proceed to kick our butts...

Nathan
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #49  
Old 10-18-2010, 08:34 AM
J.MacGhillemohr
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2010
Location: 
Arkansas
Posts: 
109
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I would like to participate!
  #50  
Old 10-18-2010, 03:51 PM
23's Dad
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2010
Location: 
Orange County, CA
Posts: 
753
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Test Run...

Well I went and shot a 4x20 this weekend as a test. I have to say, I'm humbled...

23's Dad, CA
Smallbore Rifle-Aperture Sights
641 (141 Offhand, 145 Kneeling, 172 Sitting, 183 Prone)
Remington 37, RWS Rifle Match ammo, Factory Rear, TigerSight Front, Factory trigger
50-ft, Indoor, A-17 Target, heavy downdraft in lane from blower.
Rifle:


Targets:


Commentary:
I didn't post the kneeling and offhand targets. I had the targets set on the frame in a 2x2 layout, and crossfired onto the kneeling target during the offhand - that will MESS with your head. Lesson learned. Anyway, I shot 2 rounds per A-17 because I didn't want to just burn thru targets when I'm doing the scoring anyway. We hadn't specified a round count per bull - yet, but the NRA rules say 1/bull for official matches. I can see doing it that way for ease at the scoring table, but targets cost $$.

Anyway, I could give you a whole list of alibis (excuses) for these scores, but I'll save them for the next few months. Maybe by then, I'll get some things figured out...
  #51  
Old 10-18-2010, 07:08 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Talking Test Run - me too

Haha, don't worry, you are still better then me.

The best I got last weekend was:

610 (133-0X, 138-1X, 168-2X, 171-2X) - CZ452UltraLux, NY
NRA Light Rifle, O-Class
CZ452 Ultra Lux, Fed AutoMatch, factory iron open sights, 2+ lb factory trigger (spring changed)
50yd on A-23, 50F partly cloudy, wind 5mph at 6 o'clock
Pictures: next time.

But, then I was using open sights, and good nevertheless bulk ammo.
So let's say we are in the same boat.

Yes, I think 2 rounds per bull at 50ft and 5 rounds at 50 yds will do fine (just like the Light Rifle rules state).

How much does your rifle weigh? I can't imagine it being more then 8lb.

EVERYONE, let's do a preliminary test run in this thread before November match.
Go to the range, and POST YOUR SCORES.
23's Dad will add them up in the results thread at the end of month.
For preliminary rules and printable target scroll down.

Last edited by CZ452UltraLux; 10-19-2010 at 06:39 PM.
  #52  
Old 10-18-2010, 07:33 PM
23's Dad
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2010
Location: 
Orange County, CA
Posts: 
753
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Good Stuff!

CZ452UltraLux:
Not Bad at all! You were outside, in the wind, and at 50 yds!

It really makes you focus doesn't it! Once I start thinking about "shooting for record" it all seems to go to pieces! A couple of weeks ago I stepped up to the line and shot a perfectly centered 10 with my first cold-bore offhand shot. I said "hot dog" and tried to replicate it. Yeah right...

To answer your question, I'm not sure how much my Model 37 weighs (it's A LOT!). According to "The History of Remington Firearms" by Roy M. Marcot, the original weight (with sling) was 12 lb! Since mine is pretty much stock, I would guess that it is still right at 12 lb. It doesn't move much under recoil, but it does get tiring. I shot on Saturday and I'm still taking Advil! LOL!
  #53  
Old 10-19-2010, 05:09 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Exclamation "semi-finalized" Rules

OK, here we go.
It's time to test our NRA Light Rifle and Smallbore Position Online Match.

Post your scores and photos here till end of October to work out last minute issues before the 1st actual match in November.

October scores won't be tallied yet. Let's all have fun.


MATCH RULES

This rules summary is based on NRA rules with slight modifications to attract as many people as possible.
The two classes will keep things fair, utilize the NRA Ladder (so you can track your progress from Marksman to Expert level), and allow for 50ft, 75ft/25yd and 50yd ranges to compete together in same group.

We will have two match classes:

  1. 4P NRA Conventional Smallbore (for those with advanced equipment), using A-17, A-7 or A-23 target at 50ft, 75ft/25yd, or 50yd.
  2. 4P NRA Light Rifle (for those with regular sporting rifles), using A-32 or A-31 target at 50ft or 50yd.


Key modifications to NRA 4P rules:

  • Any rimfire caliber.
  • Open, peep and telescopic sights will shoot separately.
  • Positions are:
    4P (Prone, Standing, Sitting, Kneeling - shot in that order
    )
    OR Standing and Unsupported Bench (elbows on bench and sling only) - scored separately, NOT a combined 2P class (for those that can't do all 4 positions).

Guys & gals, don't worry about the "humbling" experience after shooting this course the first few times.
We've all been there. I promise you steady improvement if you stick to it.


Learning Links:
I strongly recommend attending a local Appleseed (http://appleseedinfo.org/) to improve your position shooting.
See these CMP pdf-s for correct body positions:
http://www.odcmp.com/programs/Teachi...ePositions.pdf
http://www.odcmp.com/programs/ASJ_web.pdf
And these videos from 1989 Highpower Position Clinic:
Standing - http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2214945/6989449
Sitting - http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2156823/6823754
Prone - http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2185680/6919066
Books to consider:
"Leather Sling and Shooting Positions" by Jim Owens
"Competitive Shooting" by A.A. Yur'Yev
"Ways of the Rifle" by Gaby Buhlmann
"Rifle Steps to Success" or "Rifle: Steps to Success" by Launi Meili
"Olympic Target Rifle Shooting" by Ralf Horneber
"Shooting for Gold" by William Krilling

As long as this online match gives you a reason to go out there, practice position shooting and move you up the skills ladder I think we have succeeded.

Monthly match results are just to make it fun. Don't forget, sanctioned NRA matches are scored at each skill level separately. If we get enough participation I think we can do that here as well.


We will use NRA Smallbore Rifle Rules (links below) with the following slight modifications marked in BOLD RED.

1) 4P NRA Conventional Smallbore (Rules: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo.../sbr-index.pdf)

Rifle
Safe any caliber rimfire rifle (.17 cal. could use NRA .22 cal scoring gauge to make it fair), with no weight restrictions. Adjustable butt plate , palm rests, Schuetzen type butt plates, etc. can be used (see NRA Smallbore Rules).

Other Equipment and Accessories

- Clothing, padding, shooting jackets, slings, etc. allowed (see NRA Smallbore Rules).
- Use a shooting mat, a thick painters mat from HomeDepot, couple of yoga/camping foam mats, or an old piece of carpet to keep you dry/warm/soft in prone position (make sure it's at least 4ft wide). I also recommend knee/elbow pads (HomeDepot) and a bunch of rolled up towels to make a Kneeling Roll for comfort and thus better scores.

Sights
“O-Class“ - open iron sighted rifles,
"C-Class" - closed non-magnified iron sighted rifles (aperture or peep sights), non-magnified red dot,
“T-Class” - telescopic, magnified aperture and magnified red dot

Target and Distance Options
A-17 target, 50 feet, one shots per bullseye.
A-7 target, 75 feet / 25 yards, max. two shots per bullseye.
A-23 target, 50 yards, five shots per bullseye.
Many indoor ranges require you to use their targets ($), so just tape yours on top of theirs.


2) 4P NRA Light Rifle (Sitting position added to regular rules) (Rules Section 22: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo.../sbr-index.pdf)

Rifle

Safe any caliber rimfire rifle (.17 cal. could use NRA .22 cal scoring gauge to make it fair), having a trigger pull of not less than 2 pounds, and weighing pounds or less (including sights & sling). Adjustable butt plate permitted if placed in center position. No palm rests, Schuetzen type butt plates, etc. (see NRA Light Rifle Rules).

Other Equipment and Accessories

- Clothing, padding, etc. (see NRA Light Rifle Rules).
- Non-shooting leather work glove may be used to protect forehand from sling swivel.
- A basic military sling or carry sling not to exceed 1 ¼" width may be used in all but standing position (get one here http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart...id=10&cat_id=0).
- Use a shooting mat, a thick painters mat from HomeDepot, couple of yoga/camping foam mats, or an old piece of carpet to keep you dry/warm/soft in prone position (make sure it's at least 4ft wide). I also recommend knee/elbow pads (HomeDepot) and a bunch of rolled up towels to make a Kneeling Roll for comfort and thus better scores.

Sights
“O-Class“ - open iron sighted rifles,
"C-Class" - closed non-magnified iron sighted rifles (aperture or peep sights), non-magnified red dot, - per Dollar Bill's suggestion
“T-Class” - telescopic, magnified aperture and magnified red dot (maximum 6X)

Target and Distance Options
A-32 target, 50 feet, two shots per bullseye.
A-31 target, 50 yards, five shots per bullseye.
Many indoor ranges require you to use their targets ($), so just tape yours on top of theirs.


Rest of this post applies to both 4P NRA Conventional Smallbore and 4P NRA Light Rifle classes.


Order good quality targets here: http://www.pistoleer.com/targets/rifle/
or Download printable target pdf-s (PM CZ452UltraLux with issues):
(Make sure you have PAGE SCALING set to NONE in Acrobat Print Menu to print correct size).

A-17 (50ft - 8.5 MOA black) (be careful which bull you are shooting or cross shooting as they are close together)- http://www.box.net/shared/2edlrdfnmh
A-7 (75ft/25yd) - http://www.box.net/shared/4atdqu8av0
A-23 (50yd - 7.4 MOA black) - http://www.box.net/shared/m6rf4535ci - OR 2 Bulls on Legal Paper http://www.box.net/shared/9e8mngxnua
A-32 (50ft - 10.4 MOA black) - http://www.box.net/shared/qimhuhza2b
A-31 (50yd - 8 MOA black) - http://www.box.net/shared/2rjit37svf - OR 2 Bulls on Legal Paper http://www.box.net/shared/an3qjul4yi

Course of Fire
Distance: 50 Feet, 75ft/25yd (for Conventional Smallbore) or 50 Yards (all compete together due to target re-sizing)
Positions: Prone, Standing (no sling), Sitting (added to Light Rifle class), Kneeling - shot in that order.
OR for those that can't do all 4 positions (scored separately - NOT a combined 2P class)
- Standing (no sling)
- Unsupported Bench (sitting with elbows on the bench without any support other then sling) - instead of prone.
Time: 15 minutes per position (10 shoots - average 90 sec. per shot), with 5 minute change-over (break) and 5 minute "prep time" before each position with "unlimited sighting shots", for a total of 100 minutes to complete all 4 positions.
Those shooting standing and unsupported bench have 40 minutes total time to complete (15 min each position, with two 5 minute change-overs (breaks) and two "prep times" of 5 min. each).
No. of Shots in each position: 10 (Max. 2 shots per bull at 50ft and 75ft/25yds; 5 shots per bull at 50yds)
Max. Points: 400-40x
100-10x each (for those shooting standing and unsupported bench only,)

Many indoor ranges don't allow prone shooting due to lack of space, but if you ask to be placed at the end of the firing line I think they can make an exception.


SCORING and POSTING
I'm sure we all agree that an online postal match has to be based on an honor system, so just a reminder to use consecutive shoots.

Use official NRA .22 cal inward scoring gauge in deciding doubtful shots (touching ring (not cracked) = inside ring score).
Shooters using .17 cal. could use NRA .22 cal scoring gauge to make it fair.

($6 plain gauge, $10 magnified - I recommend magnified) http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Scoring_Gauges-335.aspx

For scoring Xs on 50ft/75ft A-17/A-32/A-7 targets please see NRA Smallbore Rule Book - Section 14: Scoring.

We'll score 2 classes, Conventional Smallbore and Light Rifle.
Each class will have a 4P category, plus Standing and Unsupported Bench/Prone categories separately, NOT a combined 2P category.
Those shooting 4P can have their standing and prone scores applied in the Standing and Unsupported Bench/Prone categories as well.

Post:
- 4P total and number of Xs, and each position total score plus number of Xs (or just your Standing and Unsupported Bench/Pronescore with Xs) followed by your RFC name and state.
- Competition class (NRA Smallbore or NRA Light Rifle), Sight category (O, C, T class), and NRA Ladder Rating (don't forget to count just standing, kneeling and prone in Light Rifle class).
- Equipment used with details.
- Range distance and weather conditions.
- Pictures of the target if you can.
How?
Use http://imageshack.us/, browse for picture of your target, click upload, copy (Ctrl-C) the link next to words "Direct Link", in your RFC post use "Insert Image" icon (the yellow icon with the mountains) and paste the link you just copied. Image of your target should show up in your post.

E.g.
338-10X (80-1X, 83-2X, 85-3X, 90-4X) - BigGuns, FL
NRA Light Rifle, C-Class, Sharpshooter (missed Expert by 2pts 253 vs 255 - don't forget to count just standing, kneeling and prone in Light Rifle class).
Kimber 82G, Wolf Match Target ammo, Kimber Iron Open Sights, 2+ pound trigger
Receiver glass bedded, Trigger modified per instructions on RFC
50 yd, Sunny, 86 Degrees, Wind 5mph at 3 o'clock gusting to 10mph
Pictures

NRA Skill Ladders (to track your progress from Marksman to Expert level).

3P NRA Light Rifle Ladder
Combine your standing, kneeling and prone scores to compare against 3P Light Rifle Ladder.



4P NRA Smallbore Ladder

"Offhand Only" and "Prone Only" ratings in Smallbore class are to be calculated as follows (% of 100 possible points for each position):

Pro-Marksman: 50% prone/bench, 40% standing;
Marksman: 63% prone/bench, 50% standing;
Marksman 1st Class: 75% prone/bench, 60% standing;
Sharpshooter: 83% prone/bench, 70% standing;
Expert: 90% prone/bench, 80% standing;
Distinguished Expert: 96% prone/bench, 91% standing;



Last edited by CZ452UltraLux; 11-21-2010 at 09:31 PM.
  #54  
Old 10-19-2010, 05:17 PM
23's Dad
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2010
Location: 
Orange County, CA
Posts: 
753
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Thumbs up I like it!!!

I second the motion!

All in favor?
  #55  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:10 PM
turntwo
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Location: 
Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 
24
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Very excited about the interest in position smallbore matches. For the past 1 1/2 years I ran some NRA approved Light Rifle matches (prone & position on A-31 targets) at my gun club, but did not get any participants. Sounds like the RFC post matches are a very good idea.

I tend to agree with CZ452UltraLux, in that the weight of the sling should not be included in the weight of a light rifle.
  #56  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:30 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by turntwo View Post
I tend to agree with CZ452UltraLux, in that the weight of the sling should not be included in the weight of a light rifle.
Turntwo,

Thanks for joining us. Since you ran official NRA Matches you can be our resident NRA rules expert then.

You mean you agree with nimrodf.
My leather GI sling weighs only 4OZ and CZ weights 6.4lb.
I know CMP limit is 7.5lb, perhaps that's why they weigh w/o sling.
Did you find weight to be an issue with sporter 22s?

Last edited by CZ452UltraLux; 10-19-2010 at 07:45 PM.
  #57  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:38 PM
David Valdina
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Aug 2004
Location: 
Barefoot Bay, Florida and Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 
2,877
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Question please...

At the Indian River range in Florida, we can shoot rifles at 50 yards but can only stand or use a bench. So do we take 20 shots from standing and 20 from unsupported bench ? Maybe the answer was there but I didn't find it. Thanks.
  #58  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:52 PM
23's Dad
US Marines Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2010
Location: 
Orange County, CA
Posts: 
753
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Unsupported Bench?

We should probably clarify how/what this term means.

I presume that it means seated at a bench, using the bench as support for your elbows. Would there be a sling? Sort of a modified prone?

David Valdina - We certainly want to include everyone, so I am certain that a means to compare/rank any participant's targets on a fair and equitable basis can be found.

Once we get a working definition of "unsupported bench", we'll have a better answer.
  #59  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:56 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Valdina View Post
At the Indian River range in Florida, we can shoot rifles at 50 yards but can only stand or use a bench. So do we take 20 shots from standing and 20 from unsupported bench ? Maybe the answer was there but I didn't find it. Thanks.
Haven't thought about that. I think you can shoot 10 Standing and 10 Unsupported Bench and then do it again, see which gives you a better score

But on the subject of ranges allowing or having space to shoot prone.
My range also doesn't have dedicated space for prone, but I asked them to lay on a slab of concrete that extends past the roofed fiering positions and they were fine with that.

You can try to see if there is some safe area you can use near the fiering positions, a patch of grass, and ask them if you can shoot at one of the end target boards at a slight angle. If your shoots are hitting the stopping wall behind the target I don't see why they shouldn't let you if you ask them nicely
  #60  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:59 PM
CZ452UltraLux's Avatar
CZ452UltraLux

Join Date: 
Jul 2009
Posts: 
215
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 23's Dad View Post
Once we get a working definition of "unsupported bench", we'll have a better answer.
I had a feeling I have written too much to read at one sitting

- Unsupported Bench sitting only (elbows on the bench without any support other then sling)
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:15 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x