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  #31  
Old 03-07-2006, 08:55 PM
keith custard

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Fuzzy: glad to see you remember me. I just ordered a cz 511 to try this year. who knows? tried a remington 504 last year, junk it would shoot 9x then throw a 7. money doesn't by a shooter. I am again planning to shoot o and t at perry, you? saw a mention of a spring match at your place, please send me details. i am planning a tune-up match july 8 in wampum, pa. love to have you come. thanks for the forum
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  #32  
Old 03-07-2006, 08:58 PM
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Banning of specific rifles ... !

Actually Danny, I believe it was old Remingtons and Kids' model CZ's that have been slated for the scrap heap. Incidentally I no longer have the Rem 552 that I obtained about the time you were playing with the 550 - gone to new home in KY !

I suppose I should start on a fresh "Pawnshop crawl" - but Momma has been casting evil eyes at me every time I leave the mountain to go to town

Regards,
Bryan - The Fuzzy Limey

Ooops ! - PS: Keith, details of all our CRC events are on the Club website -
Prone: http://chatrifleclub.org/proneleeg
CMP: http://chatrifleclub.org/cmprs

PPS: Check with Warren, (obx22), as to how his tests with the CZ.511 are doing.
Not sure I'm going to make too many of the events this year as feet and legs are giving me hell ... may have to resort to the expertise of Don, (Magical) before too long - lol !
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  #33  
Old 03-07-2006, 10:17 PM
ironfox
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The first year this event was held I shot a 541 with my open sighted rommy trainer. At that time this was the highest score shot with open sights. Now this score is in the middle of the silver award range.As the compitition gets tougher where will this leave the new shooters and youngsters ? 3p is beyond the budget of most of the blue collar shooters I know, never mind that it takes years of practice to develop the skills needed to compete at the upper levels.The spirit of the rules state " rifles used for informal shooting and plinking" Gaming up an anschutz or going with aftermarket parts in a race to score higher seems to me to violate that spirit. I have Anschutz and win 52 and Rem 37 and other high dollar rimfires and love them dearly. However I see a need for a low barriar event to encourge youth and other new shooters to participate in. Not just participate but also be successful, so they will remain active shooters. Should youth have lower scores to qualify for awards?
Yes I know that this is a competitve event and that people will seek out what works best for them. Is it possible to keep this event challenging for the more experienced shooters and also keep it within the reach of those with less experience? Should award scores be held at last years levels and just award more of them as shooters score higher? Most of the posts so far seem sincere in wanting this event to grow and I have seen many of you put forth a lot of work to help put on matches and encourage others. Lets keep working together.
Thanks
Rex ( Ironfox)
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  #34  
Old 03-08-2006, 06:08 AM
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Low cost equipment, etc .... !

On that last note, may I say that, to my knowledge, the two highest scores in "O" Open-sight class competition, and that are repeated month after month, are shot with inexpensive stock CZ.452 Trainers/Specials using bulk Walmart ammo. Mike Bell, (strayround), and Don Moore, (Magical) consistently shoot in the 580+ range. Don is relatively new to rifle competition, having made the switch to CMP Sporter as his first game a couple of years ago. Not sure of young Mikes' shooting background. Neither of them use any expensive equipment ... blankets for shooting mats, wear only T-shirts, etc, etc, are the norm.

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Bryan - The Fuzzy Limey
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  #35  
Old 03-08-2006, 06:21 AM
suncoast53

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Spirit of 2.1

Checked the Camp Perry T class results for 2005 and found 2 T/Cs in the top ten along with an Annie, 3 Kimbers, a Clark 10/22, a Winchester 52, one CZ and in the number 10 position a Savage. A quick retail price check showed only the Savage currently available for less than $300. It appears that the top shooters are finding ways to get high dollar rifles under the 7.5 lb /3lb trigger limits and are using them to good effect. Human nature being what it is, among us lesser shooters the feeling will persist "if I can just get that annie I'll add a few points and get to the next class." Any easing of the 7.5lbs (with sling) and the 3lb trigger is going to let in even more expensive guns with a further escalation of the cost of competing. Keep the rules the way they are.
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  #36  
Old 03-08-2006, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoast53
only the Savage currently available for less than $300. It appears that the top shooters are finding ways to get high dollar rifles under the 7.5 lb /3lb trigger limits and are using them to good effect.
Whittaker’s has the CZ 452 Special, LUX, ULTRA LUX, or American listed for under $300.00 with the Special still only $209.99.

They also have the T/C Classic at $308.99 and I would not consider that outside of the low-cost group. I believe this is the gun that shot the high score the last three years.
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  #37  
Old 03-08-2006, 11:06 AM
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Shooting ability is still the key ..... !

With regard to the 2005 National results ... lets stay objective here, please. Three of the top 4 places in "T" Class, (1,2 &4), were taken with relatively inexpensive rifles. The remaining spot, in third place, was shot with a modified Ruger 10/22.

Now lets' look at the shooters:

1st Place: Ron Springsteen - 3 times Nationals winner, well-known Silhouette shooter I believe - from a quick look at his old T/C Classic rifle, nothing special observable, an old 2.5X scope.

2nd Place: Warren Westphal - obx22 here on TFC - one of the best CMP riflemen in the country - consistent winner - seems to use a different rifle every match, depending upon what his latest horse-trade has been - lol

3rd Place: Nick Combs - teen-age National 4-H CMP Champion - working hard to be a top line competitor - rifle a Clark-barreled, modified Ruger 10/22 Carbine

4th Place: Chad Cleland - Umpteen-times National Muzzle-Loading Rifle Assoc'n Champion - T/C Classic, nothing special observable, but knowing Chads' reputation as a gunsmith would expect it to be well-tuned.

5th Place: Kevin Nealon - (Kevin on RFC) - CMP Match Director for the Front Royal, VA CMP-shooting group of youngsters - M.64 - the low-end of the Anschutz line-up - again a top-line rifleman

In "O" Open-sight class you had essntially the same situation ... the majority of the rifles in the Top-10, from memory, other than an old Winchester 75 and Rem 40X, were Ruger 10/22's and CZ.452's.

As stated before - the competitor , NOT the rifle, specifically, combined with the specified course of fire. It is only natural that a good shooter will gravitate to "good equipment", but as we have shown in our experiments here on RFC, any of these "good" shooters can do virtually the same with the cheapiest, junkiest rifles. Both Danny Creasy, Warren Westphal and myself, have done it over and over. It has been done by a "large bulky ex-Marine" using a kids' single-shot Chipmunk !

Regards,
Bryan - The Fuzzy Limey
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  #38  
Old 03-08-2006, 03:08 PM
mikekj

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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoast53
Checked the Camp Perry T class results for 2005 and found 2 T/Cs in the top ten along with an Annie, 3 Kimbers, a Clark 10/22, a Winchester 52, one CZ and in the number 10 position a Savage. A quick retail price check showed only the Savage currently available for less than $300. It appears that the top shooters are finding ways to get high dollar rifles under the 7.5 lb /3lb trigger limits and are using them to good effect. Human nature being what it is, among us lesser shooters the feeling will persist "if I can just get that annie I'll add a few points and get to the next class." Any easing of the 7.5lbs (with sling) and the 3lb trigger is going to let in even more expensive guns with a further escalation of the cost of competing. Keep the rules the way they are.

You guys keep talking about the 7.5 lb. weight limit with the sling attached. The 2005 CMP rule book states that the sling may be removed.

CMP Competition Rules, 9th edition, effective 1-1-2005.

R 2.1 Overall weight
The overall weight of the rifle, including sights (sling may be removed), may not exceed 7.5 pounds.

I do believe that in the beginning the weight limit did include the sling, but not now.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

mike
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  #39  
Old 03-08-2006, 03:19 PM
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Sling weight ..... !

R.2.1 Overall Weight ..... !
That rule clause has two (2) sentences ... ! The second sentence contradicts the first by saying that "the overall weight of the rifle, with sights and sling, does not exceed 7.5#."

A moot point now as the revised provisional 2006 rules say sling weight NOT included !

Fuzzy
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  #40  
Old 03-08-2006, 04:28 PM
mikekj

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Well honk my hooter, maybe if I read a little further I would have seen the contradiction.

But your right in that it has been cleared up with the revisions.

thanks
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  #41  
Old 03-08-2006, 07:15 PM
ironfox
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In the first cmp match (2002) the highest score fired was a 529. This was a silver medal for Phil Croyle.I fired a 509 and took a bronze. The 509 will no longer win an award. I like to be competitive as much as the next guy and over the last few years tried a lot of different rifles. I also now use a CZ452.
I don't care what gun anybody uses, if it makes the rules go ahead and shoot and I'll show up and do my best. BUT- as scores get higher and the bar for awards is raised- are we leaving the kids and beginners behind? I have watched 2 blackpowder clubs fall apart.40 shooters every match and after a about a year when it became obvious that the same 5-8 shooters won every event, the rest stopped showing up. Its a fact that people won't participate in an event for very long if they feel thay don't have a chance of success.I could care less about an award for myself, I shoot to see my own improvment. However one of the draws of this event ,especially for the kids I've worked with is a chance to get an award. AS we all get better the dream for a youngster to " win" an award is getting dimmer. I have seen several father /child combos quit this event because of this and can't help but feel the poorer for it. What used to be a major draw to encourage new shooters into orginized compitition has now become a hurdle that many feel they can't clear. We are in an arms race , we- the more dedicated shooters- look for advantages and push the bar higher. Thats progress I guess but what do we lose in the process?
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  #42  
Old 03-09-2006, 10:44 AM
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To ironfox:
as scores get higher and the bar for awards is raised- are we leaving the kids and beginners behind?

(By changing the achievement point spread, very possibly. I've no solution on that one. I continue to reinforce that we are really shooting against our own best scores.)

I have watched 2 blackpowder clubs fall apart.40 shooters every match and after a about a year when it became obvious that the same 5-8 shooters won every event, the rest stopped showing up. Its a fact that people won't participate in an event for very long if they feel thay don't have a chance of success.

(Its been the same thing at my club, witnessed by the scores we turn in each month, but that is the nature of true competition. Those who continue to show up at each event have the spirit of the game. If your not out to do your best, if you don't challenge yourself, whats the point? Using the excuse of "that person always wins" or "they win cause they have better gear" doesn't hold water in this game more than any other I've ever played. Its like if we were playing pingpong, well heck, we're both using paddles, wearing sneakers, gee why does one win more than the other? Why does one loser stop playing, yet another continues to play and improve? Desire. The desire to do better, to succeed, to win. I will provide top notch gear to anyone that comes to shoot at my events and feels undergunned, I've no understanding for folks who have to make excuses for why they won't compete, yet complain.)

However one of the draws of this event ,especially for the kids I've worked with is a chance to get an award. AS we all get better the dream for a youngster to " win" an award is getting dimmer. I have seen several father /child combos quit this event because of this and can't help but feel the poorer for it. What used to be a major draw to encourage new shooters into orginized compitition has now become a hurdle that many feel they can't clear.

(Perhaps the forming of a team event would encourage the youths more, I don't really know)

We are in an arms race , we- the more dedicated shooters- look for advantages and push the bar higher. Thats progress I guess but what do we lose in the process?

( I honestly think we lose those who want victory handed to them. Now I know that sounds harsh, and I really don't mean to come across that way, but why cheapen winning? Rare is the day that goes by I don't pick up a gun, feel its heft, and take an imaginary shot or two. I'm just fulfilling my desire to do better, to catch PDwight, Combs and Springsteen!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fuzzy,
many thanks for the kind words sir, it is the greatest of honors to be well thought of by those you revere. I have always enjoyed the times we've shot together. The humidity in Griffin Ga. seems like such a distant memory. The winds of Perry left a lasting impression.
Take care sir,
warren

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
suncoast53:
Any easing of the 7.5lbs (with sling) and the 3lb trigger is going to let in even more expensive guns with a further escalation of the cost of competing.

(I have been blessed to have been able to fire this game with a variety of rifles to include: 4 different CZ 452s, a CZ511, a Winchester 94/22, a Remington 550, a Remington 582, a Winchester 320, a Heckler Koch 270, a Anschutz 54 sporter, and just for giggles, an overweight Mas45. Each of these firearms showed gold level scores. In 2004 I took the H&K270 along as my ironsight rifle, figuring what the heck, I've traveled so far to compete, might as well shoot both events.(In my mind I didn't think I had a snowballs chance in hades of even placing) I much preferred scope, yet that year I came in 9th in T, 2nd in O class. That same pair of rifles in 2005 earned a 2nd in T class and 3rd in irons. Any gun, ANY GUN capable of 3/4" to 1" groups at 50 yards is competitive in this event on a national level. I don't know how else to stress that. In this event you can not buy a win.)

Last edited by obx22; 03-09-2006 at 05:53 PM.
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  #43  
Old 03-09-2006, 06:18 PM
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Well said Warren!
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  #44  
Old 03-09-2006, 11:17 PM
ironfox
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Hats off to all you that encourage new shooters. We need more of that.
Warren, you are correct. Some shooters drop out because they are too lazy to practice. I don't have much time for them. I worry about the youngsters. 12 ,13 ,14 years old. Some skill but nowhere near whats needed to finish in the award count. The child of a single parent or being raised by grandparents who don't have a lot of time or energy to devote to shooting. We have a limited time to get their interest and get them hooked on shooting. I like that team idea you mentioned. a junior and adult team. That may help draw more in. KevinN who has been mentioned here takes the competitors photo and prints it out with the shooters score for that day. Mine has drawn favorable comments from coworkers and a possible new shooter. Everybody likes a souvenior of a good time.
I have read many commets and suggestions in this thread that are geared to getting CMP to change the rules so that we can shoot higher scores but few ideas on how to entice shooters to join our happy little band. I've been shooting for over 40 years. Can't tell you how many youth I've helped run through our states hunter safety course. We used to include a half day of live fire instruction.Over the years we have seen a marked drop in two parent families and a large increase in the situations described above.Very few of the youths we've taught have a level of skill that would get them an award but almost all take to shooting quite enthusiasticlly. How can we keep them?
Do we tell them " suck it up kid and practice till you're good enough to win?"
We juggle the rules to let the old and infirm start in position, how about letting the juniors do the same? I don't mean to rain on anybodies parade but face it. In 20 years most of us on this forum will be shooting on that big range in the sky. Where are the new shooters.? Our county 3p keague had 16 teams shooting just 12 years ago. we are now down to 4 and will probably be down to 3 next year. The average age of the members is over 60! Can we, as shooters afford to miss any chance to encourage people to keep participating? Should the award scores for juniors be lower than adults?
I don't have any answers only concerns.
To quote the CMP 2002 final results "THese events are shot with as issued or commonly available rifles with the course of fire designed to emphasize fun ,history and access for all shooters".page 45 2002 results booklet.
It saddens me to see this event go down the same road as all the other shooting sports where we become so enamored with our own achievements that we discourage the less skilled.
I'm done carping and I can't type either
Rex
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  #45  
Old 03-10-2006, 06:57 AM
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I really think alot of you guys/gals worry too much about the "youth of today" and the "future of the shooting sports". Just put together a good program. Get the word out about it. Six youngsters show up. Make sure they are welcomed and taught safely. Do some tactful coaching. All six will probably have a good experience. Four will say to themselves "this is okay but I would rather be doing ........" and not come back. One will come back for a couple of matches and either get frustrated by not being the best (sorry, alot of folks are just like that) or discover girls/boys, get a new car, get a new computer, or the next ball season (soccer, baseball, softball, football, basketball, etc.) will start and he/she will drift away. And finally one youngster (somebody like Cory or Richard - that Dwight has mentored) will be hooked and probably be a lifetime shooter. Thats the way it is. If everybody loved shooting like I do it would be a zoo and probably not be as fun.

It seems like we have two camps arguing in circles here. The ones that feel like CMP Sporter is the means to an end and the ones that feel like CMP Sporter is an end in itself. Both are staffed by good and well meaning folks and I think it would help if both stopped and really tried to look at the game through the other camp's eyes.

Danny
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