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  #1  
Old 04-15-2018, 02:00 PM
twobit is online now

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Faked/Altered Model 61 Rifle Listing



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This has been a hard month for Model 61 collectors looking for high condition and unique chamber and barrel configurations. I have identified 3 rifles in just this month which started out their life as standard round barrel short, long, and long rifle chambers. Then they mysteriously show up with either round barrel LR Shot Only or octagon barrel rifles in later auction or website offerings. So, in an effort to help out the collecting community of these cool little guns I have decided to start a list of the known serial numbers that have been altered. These are rifles which have been deliberately altered, most commonly by swapping or replacing barrels to make what was a standard rifle into a single chamber alternative.** This list DOES NOT* include the many many rifles which have been refinished or had wood sanded and refinished. Keep this post archived and when you see something "to good to be true" you just might want to take a look here. I will update this as I dig through all my data and spread sheet info. If anyone has any suggestion or further input I am more than happy to hear it.

Thanks. Michael

For starters:

1331 Added 16 October 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...al/#p757093863
4146
9316 Added 25 Sept 2019 [url]https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-22-rim-fire/restored-model-61-at-montrose-sept-2019-1272/#p85336[url]
9751 Added 28 November 2019 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1177913
8775 Added 16 April 2018
22217 Added 12 Oct 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...orphy/#p75595]
29978
32154
38034
45030
50787 Added 18 June 2018 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...5#post11070135
61553 Added 28 November 2019 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1177913
63529 Added 2 Aug 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...t/#p7415964388
67623
77275 Added 30 Nov 2018 Read the description VERY carefully RIA Dec 2017 Lot 364 Left side WINCHESTER label is "custom"
80472 Added 30 Nov 2018 Not proven but "highly suspect" Offered on Gunbroker.com out of Henryetta, OK by the same seller who has sold proven fakes owned by Charles Key.
83093 Barrel switched from standard to Short Only and Rec engraved WINCHESTER with gallery loading port. Added 1 Oct 2018
95787
98030
128172 Standard rifle faked as Shot Only w/ box by Steve Barnett. $6500 6 June 2018
128982 Not "Proven" but HIGHLY suspect.
129280 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1106121
140091 Barrel switched from LR to LR Shot Only. Previously listed at Mike Bishop now at RIA Added Aug 23 2018
154400 Barrel switched from standard to Short Only. Originally sold on GB out of Christiansburg, VA. Now listed on GB out of "Winchester Guns" in Jamestown, CA. The guy who always has fake boxes.
154602 Added Oct 4 2019 Originally sold out of Remlap, AL on Gunbroker as a standard rifle. Purchased in Nov 2013 at Tulsa from CH Key as a RB Long Rifle only. Yet ANOTHER CH Key related fake.
161484 Not "Proven" but HIGHLY suspect
161680
282663
300626 Added 16 April 2018

Last edited by twobit; 11-28-2019 at 08:17 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2018, 02:49 PM
joe45c
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relieved to see mine isn't on that list!
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:41 AM
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Good morning guys,

I added a rather lengthy and extremely interesting reply to this same thread which is posted on the WACA forum site. It is pasted below because I believe we should all read it.

Quote:
Good morning Roger,

At first glance the rifle looks real nice. BUT, you have to ask yourself for a rifle described as "Extremely fine. The rifle retains 98% plus showing some light cycling marks." why then was the wood in need of being refinished as is mentioned in the catalogue???

And here is something I find VERY interesting in my data. Between SN 152404 and 187218 (34,814 rifles) I have cataloged 397 specimens. The production is dominated by standard round barrel plane Jane rifles. But there are 7 Rifles scattered about that are RB 22 WRF chambered. And guess what, 4 of those were sold out of RIA, 2 out of Little Johns, and 1 at Julia's!!!!!! WHY is it that only the large auction houses have access to these "rare" rifles???? My personal feeling is that I would be suspect of all of them.

But wait!!! It gets even more crazy! Within this same interval there are 14 rifles chambered in 22 LR Shot Only and 4 rifles chambered 22 RB Short only. Of the 14 LR guns there were 6 sold out of RIA, 2 from Julia, and 2 from Steve Barnett. Of the 4 Short Only rifles 1 from Julia, 1 from Little Johns, 1 from Steve Barnett, and one at Montrose auction.

Call me highly skeptical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that all these guns are out of "premier collections" and thus only offered via large auction houses. Especially if/when they are not portrayed that way in catalogues. So if you look at the totals of the WRF, LR Only, and RB Short Only guns in this range there are a total of 21 desirable single chamber rifles that just also happen to be in really nice condition because the original owners just happen to never use them (my sarcasm) and 10 (almost half) were sold out of RIA, 3 sold out of Little Johns, 3 sold out of Julia's and 3 from Steve Barnett. So that is 19 out of 21 sold out of very specific and consistent sources.

Right now I am feeling REAL GOOD that I never bought a high condition Model 61 rifle from these sources. And for my fellow survey takers I learned this. If you keep track of enough information you never know what you might be able to figure out.

i hope all this helps guys.

Michael

Last edited by twobit; 06-06-2018 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:13 AM
karls42

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Nice work, keep it up
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:52 AM
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Good job Michael! Thanks for the dedication. Peter
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:27 AM
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i had a friend ( now at the great gun show in the sky) who did appraisals for collections and insurance.

He said that there are more engraved Winchesters in collections than the factory ever produced. At that time he was referring to 1866,1873,Henry's and mainly lever guns.

Probably the same with Colt's and S&W.

Carney
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:52 PM
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Thank you Michael for posting that list. Your research only reinforces what I had begun to suspect already. A few years ago, I ran into an acquaintance/collector who lives in small nearby town. He was telling me about buying a Winchester 61 from an older gentleman. Here's the thing......he said it was a Routledge-bored .22 WMR. While Ned Schwing does indeed show an experimental .22 WMR smoothbore with a screw on choke tube (non of which were sold to the public as far as I know), I see no mention of a Routledge-bored .22 WMR. But someone paid him big money for the gun. I would say that gun is highly suspect.

Thank you again for what you are doing.......you are going beyond what a lot of guys would do.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump .22s View Post
Thank you Michael for posting that list. Your research only reinforces what I had begun to suspect already. A few years ago, I ran into an acquaintance/collector who lives in small nearby town. He was telling me about buying a Winchester 61 from an older gentleman. Here's the thing......he said it was a Routledge-bored .22 WMR. While Ned Schwing does indeed show an experimental .22 WMR smoothbore with a screw on choke tube (non of which were sold to the public as far as I know), I see no mention of a Routledge-bored .22 WMR. But someone paid him big money for the gun. I would say that gun is highly suspect.

Thank you again for what you are doing.......you are going beyond what a lot of guys would do.
I am a scientist by trade and thus "cooking data" to see what comes out of it is what got me into the research game on the Winchester 1892's to start with. Then the questions about the Model 61 and the % of production for the various chamber and barrel choices came along and nobody had a decent answer. So what the heck. Start collecting data. It only takes an hour or so every day for about 6 years to figure this kind of stuff out. But is is very satisfying when you finally get to this point and the data starts talking, or maybe as in this instance, starts screaming that there appears to be something REALLY funky going on here. I am going to take another more thorough look at the guns in the SN 152404 and 187218 interval and reach out to a few collectors that also have single chamber rifles in this interval and see where they acquired them from.

Michael

Last edited by twobit; 06-18-2018 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobit View Post
I am a scientist by trade and thus "cooking data" to see what comes out of it is what got me into the research game on the Winchester 1892's to start with. The the Model 61 questions of the % of production for the various chamber and barrel choices then came along and nobody had a decent answer. So what the heck. Start collecting data. It only takes an hour or so every day for about 6 years to figure this kind of stuff out. But is is very satisfying when you finally get to this point and the data starts talking, or maybe as in this instance, starts screaming that there appears to be something REALLY funky going on here. I am going to take another and more thorough look at the guns in the SN 152404 and 187218 interval and reach out to a few collectors that also have single chamber rifles in this interval and see where they acquired them from.

Michael
I too have a science background and have a great appreciation for the scientific method of problem solving. I understand the significance of meaningful data and how to use it. I will readily admit that I sometimes have to stop and examine myself to see if I am following the data trail properly and not just throwing out baseless opinions. I get a little amused (and frustrated sometimes) with all those single three or five shot groups that prove that other folks should buy a (pick your brand) rifle. And so on.

I said all that to say that I appreciate what your are doing, because I think it is useful, and because I can understand the potential value of all that hard earned data you have collected. So, when you throw out the possibility that a certain rifle is suspect, I know it isn't just a wild hunch or supposition. Lord only knows what is going on with guns like the Colts, Winchester 52 sporters, etc. Again, keep up the good work.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:16 PM
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Just too add what other have already said, Michael you steady work over 6 years is really starting to show results, I hope you really are pleased to be showing up these rorts and hopefully save some people with serious money from making fools of themselves.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:53 AM
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I added a new rifle to the list at the top. SN 128172 offered by Steve Barnett... Why does that name keep popping up in this sort of thread??????? See this thread: https://winchestercollector.org/foru...ot-only-w-box/

Michael

Last edited by twobit; 06-06-2018 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:17 PM
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One would think someone in law enforcement would be interested in this.....

This isn't petty cash being talked about.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:20 PM
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Great work Michael. All those years of chasing down our serial numbers is paying off!
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:28 AM
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I have updated this listing and was wondering if you guys would like the Admins to make this a sticky for easier reference?

Michael

Last edited by twobit; 06-19-2018 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:37 AM
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Yes, you have my vote for a sticky!

Best Regards,
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