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Old 06-29-2019, 06:07 AM
flangster

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Relationship between Browning and High Standard Design?



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I was looking at older Browning Medalist and Challenger models today on Gunbroker and was struck by the external similarities in design between those pistols and the High Standards I recently purchased. This is a question borne of rank inexperience, but are the design similarities any more than two companies trying to perfect similar concepts at the same time? After all, cars all have four wheels, but it doesn't mean that a Porche and a Dodge have anything else in common.

I was looking at, I don't know, the open breech, the extractor location, the occasional gold colored trigger and so on. Is this any more than parallel lines of engineering and marketing departments trying to crack similar problems?

Just "newbie" curiosity . . .
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Last edited by flangster; 06-29-2019 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:12 AM
LDBennett
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Hi Std used what was known to work from a John Browning design. By the time the Hi Std's entered the market place (as a single shot!) Browning patents had expired.

There are reasons for the placement of controls. The safety must be under the thumb. The slide release is better if operated by the finger on the right side of the gun. The open breech minimizes jams. The extractor directs the empties out of the gun and should be to the side, not back into the face of the shooter.

Most guns today follow the designs made famous by John Browning. He died in the 1920's but held hundreds of gun patents. He originally did rifles models for Winchester (1886, 1892, 1894, 1895 shotguns, single shots, 22's). Later he did designs for Colt and FN in Belgium (pocket pistols, 1911, Woodsman, Hi Power).

John Browning was the gun genius that gave us most of the basic designs of today. Winchester and Colt (and many others) still sell his gun designs today. Remember he was only educated to the elementary school level. He designed the guns in his head and made models without the aid of paper and pencil designing. He sold the designs to Winchester, Remington, Colt, and FN. Today's Browning Company is the legacy of him. Look him up on YouTube for his life story.

LDBennett
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:37 AM
Ontarian50

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The High Standard, and the Browning blow-back .22s, are essentially refinements of the original Colt Woodsman (although it wasn't called Woodsman at first). While the Brownings certainly borrow from the Woodsman layout, the original High Standard was even more derivative. Comments on this forum often note that the magazines for the early Woodsman fit the first High Standard, Model B.

That first High Standard was a continuation of the Hartford Arms .22 auto pistol, designed by Lucius Diehm, who worked at Colt for awhile, I think. It's debateable whether his design was a genuine effort to improve on the Colt layout (especially in takedown), or whether his design was a way to get a similar gun on the market that avoided Colt/Browning patents.

It has struck me that High Standard, kept updating its pistol designs at a fairly rapid pace, compared to what most guns companies do. Was this either to distance themselves from the Hartford Arms era, or to make a gun more distinctive from the Woodsman? I mean, after only a few years, they switched to an external hammer (H series), then after the war quickly developed the removable barrel (which apparently came about via the development of the failed .380 gun).
And then there was the quick progression of frame development, and barrel attachments, eventually leading to the military grip guns of the 1960s.
By comparison, Colt's Woodsman progressed at a snail's pace, with only three main design types over its history.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:36 PM
SGVictor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
Hi Std used what was known to work from a John Browning design. High Standard updated the Hartford Arms and Equipment Co design which was covered by its own patents issued to Lucien Diehm and assinged in part to others. By the time the Hi Std's entered the market place (as a single shot!) Note the first day of shipments saw both the High Standard version of the Hartford single shot and the High Standard Model B, the High Standard version of the Harford Model of 1925, ship. Both shipped on 10/15/1932. The Single shot did not carry the Hi-Standard tradename but continued to use the Hartford markings. The Single shot box for the single shots sold by High Standard called the gun a Hartford but said manufactured by High Standard Browning patents had expired. There were several patents for the pre Woodsman and Woodsman. One was issued in 1918 to John M Browning and one was issued jointly to George Tansley and F C Chadwick Colt engineers who cleaned up Brownings design. The patent drawings show that the actual product was nearer the Tansley/Chadwich patent drawings than the Browning Drawings. Patents are for 17 years and would have expired in 1935 , three years after High Standard began making pistols. I have a Colt memo where they asked an their patent lawyer to get copies of the Hartford and High Standard patents. I have that patent package but noting came of it.

There are reasons for the placement of controls. The safety must be under the thumb. The slide release is better if operated by the finger on the right side of the gun. The open breech minimizes jams. The extractor directs the empties out of the gun and should be to the side, not back into the face of the shooter.

Most guns today follow the designs made famous by John Browning. He died in the 1920's but held hundreds of gun patents. He originally did rifles models for Winchester (1886, 1892, 1894, 1895 shotguns, single shots, 22's). Later he did designs for Colt and FN in Belgium (pocket pistols, 1911, Woodsman, Hi Power).He sold his designs and patents to whomever would pay for his design. Browning died before the High Power was built. He had an associate doing the design work under his guidance and this associate actually finished the design after Browning's death.

John Browning was the gun genius that gave us most of the basic designs of today. Winchester and Colt (and many others) still sell his gun designs today. Remember he was only educated to the elementary school level. He designed the guns in his head and made models without the aid of paper and pencil designing. He sold the designs to Winchester, Remington, Colt, and FN. Today's Browning Company is the legacy of him. Look him up on YouTube for his life story.

LDBennett
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:09 PM
SGVictor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ontarian50 View Post
The High Standard, and the Browning blow-back .22s, are essentially refinements of the original Colt Woodsman (although it wasn't called Woodsman at first). While the Brownings certainly borrow from the Woodsman layout, the original High Standard was even more derivative. Comments on this forum often note that the magazines for the early Woodsman fit the first High Standard, Model B.

That first High Standard was a continuation of the Hartford Arms .22 auto pistol, designed by Lucius Diehm,(Lucien Diehm) who worked at Colt for awhile, I think. It's debateable whether his design was a genuine effort to improve on the Colt layout (especially in takedown), or whether his design was a way to get a similar gun on the market that avoided Colt/Browning patents. There are a number of Diehm pistol patents. An earlier patent covered the Fiala. Most Diehm patents were assigned in part to one or more additional people. There is a patent for the Hartford single shot and two for the semi-auto model of 1925. What the patent drawings show and what was actually produced are not exactly the same.

It has struck me that High Standard, kept updating its pistol designs at a fairly rapid pace, compared to what most guns companies do. Mostly it was to solve problems with the extant design. There are some clear differences between the late Hartford ( type 3) and the early Model B. In the first 6.5 years or so they introduced a .22 short version called the model C. Note that Hartford made a few in .22 short on the type 3 Hartford frame The other changes to the Model B was different takedowns - types I-A, I-B and II. In April 1938 they introduced adjustable sights, the long grip frame and heavier barrels mostly in response to complaints from target shooters about the Model B. Was this either to distance themselves from the Hartford Arms era, or to make a gun more distinctive from the Woodsman? I mean, after only a few years, The external hammer guns appeared in January through April 1940 The lasted until early 1942 o about two years and on balance had miserable sales compared to the internal hammer guns. they switched to an external hammer (H series), then after the war quickly developed the removable barrel (which apparently came about via the development of the failed .380 gun). The removable barrel was developed on the P .380 during the war and on the P .22 just after the war.
And then there was the quick progression of frame development, and barrel attachments, eventually leading to the military grip guns of the 1960s.
By comparison, Colt's Woodsman progressed at a snail's pace, with only three main design types over its history.
The post war removable barrel guns each had design/production issues and they changed designs about as fact as they could until the 103 series. The 106 to 107 series change was to solve a production/cost problem. The 107-108 series change was to reduce costs.
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