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High priced ammo strangling the sport

19K views 182 replies 70 participants last post by  Lorger 
#1 ·
Simple logic , allowing high priced ammo into competition; limits the amount of people that can afford to be competitive. Therefore reducing the number of competitors, matches, and general interest in the sport. Limit the price to 250 a box , and the sport would be much more accessible to the people who just can’t afford 10- 20 dollar a box ammo. The sport would have a much better chance to grow , and ammunition makers would have some incentive to produce better ammo , at a cheaper price.
 
#3 ·
People would then start "twisting the rules". I used to race motorcycles. The state sanctioning body saw exactly what you are describing. No one could afford to buy a new motorcycle for $8000, then have to dump another $4-5000 into it just to be competitive. So they started to play around with the idea of a "stock class" In other words, a class that was only for bikes with zero modifications, as-is, straight from the showroom floor. Buy it on Friday, race it on Sunday. Didn't work. People got real creative and basically cheated.

In the shooting world, for example, you could repackage, say, CCI Pistol match at 15 cents per round into a empty box of CCI-SV at 4 cents per round. No one would know. Externally the cartridges look exactly the same.
 
#4 · (Edited)
About the only way it could be done is for the sanctioning body to issue the ammo at the match. The Civilian Marksmanship Program did that very thing for Service Pistol matches. They are 30 shot matches, and you were handed a box of 50 rounds of .45acp 230 grain ball ammo just before the match. You had to shoot what they gave you, whether or not your pistol liked it, you shot it. They have long since eased the rules and you can reload your own. Heck, now you can use pistols that were never used by the US Military. That kind of takes the tradition out of the game.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Limit the price to 250 a box.....
Shooting an ARA Target with $2.50 a box Ammo would not Fun at all. For $.05 centers per round, you can't even buy Federal Bulk Ammo (with Shipping & Tax)

Show up and Shoot whatever you have. The new ARA Factory Class is a great opportunity to try a Competition, without spending a lot.

Here are the rules:

https://www.americanrimfire.com/media/rules/ARA2020v1.pdf

Go to an event, shoot and compare your results against guys who are using similar rifles and ammo.
 
#34 · (Edited)
that looks like fun.

as far as ammo cost, no matter what happens, at least around these parts you are at the mercy of the ammo no matter what you do. what works on one day in a given rifle likely wont work on another. so we have to lot test on the day usually. around here it is usually the guy who has his finger on the pulse of what conditions the ammo he has works in/and gets lucky enough to have a lot that works in that particular humidity/pressure combination. so it doesnt necessarily require the most expensive boxes of ammo to win, at least at our locale.
 
#15 ·
Nearest match is 2 hours 10 minutes away. I don’t know many who would drive that far away to participate, and I don’t know a single person that would pay 1000 - 2000 for a case of ammo. I get ammo delivered to the door for 187 dollar a case for blazer , and 250 for cci standard velocity.All I’m hearing is reasons to keep the sport expensive.
 
#18 ·
Nearest match is 2 hours 10 minutes away. I don't know many who would drive that far away to participate, and I don't know a single person that would pay 1000 - 2000 for a case of ammo. I get ammo delivered to the door for 187 dollar a case for blazer , and 250 for cci standard velocity.All I'm hearing is reasons to keep the sport expensive.
Adventurer - all I'm hearing from you is the equivalent of "athletes that train hard and often are making athletics unfair...."
 
#16 ·
I've had the good fortune to be the RSO at three Junior Sport Pistol events in Virginia in the last two years.
The VA state championship and the Junior Olympics qualifier were two of the matches.

All the competitors but one shot Pardini's in the JIOC qualifier and all the competitors shot Pardini's in the state championship. The kid who placed last in the qualifier without a Pardini shot a Pardini at the state championship.

Ammo was not the big expense. Pardini's cost $2,500. The two boxes of ammo are not even a minor expense compared to the pistol, the travel and the time expended to be competitive. I would bet you spend more on the entry fee and in gas and auto wear and tear to get to the matches than you spend on the two boxes of ammo you would use in most competitions.

By the way, these kids are sensational shooters. Our club had 6 qualify for the JIOC finals and the boys and girls state champions in Sport Pistol shoot on our club team. They and their families travel all over the region for matches and to Colorado for the JIOC match.
They practice constantly and often win the club's bullseye matches with both .22 and .38 pistols, much to the chagrin of our adult members. Their pistols are great but their skill level is what wins for them.

The girls VA state champion made the Junior Olympic team as well. She had top overall score in the VA State championship. She is like a machine who never gets flustered and who has an internal clock that is unerring. She always seems to shoot the last round in slow or rapid fire within 5 seconds of the timer beep.

Ammo wouldn't make any difference, her skill does. She wins just about anything she competes in.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Adventurer,

Name a Sport/Hobby that's less expensive than shooting Factory Class at your Local Club

- Not Fishing

- Not Golf

- Not Hunting

- Not any other type of Competitive Shooting

If you made everyone shoot the Federal Bulk that you suggest, the entire sport would vanish overnight. No one wants to do everything correctly and have a bad round ruin it. What would be the point. Quality Ammo decreases one variable and allows the shooter to focus on wind reading and everything else that goes into hitting the dot.

Compete at the level you can afford. Compare your result to the guys using similar gear. I don't see the problem here
 
#20 ·
This is why they have a "Base/Production" class, to allow people who don't want to or cant afford the more expensive equipment. We all make choices with our money. If I want to spend the money for a better rifle and ammo, thats my choice, and my choice puts me into Open division. You know what furthers the sport? Supporting companies that sponsor events and support us. Lapua, Vudoo, Masterpiece Arms, Armageddon Gear, ect. If you want to start a "Stock Rifle" league to make it all fair, I'll wait.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
 
#22 ·
Simple logic , allowing high priced ammo into competition; limits the amount of people that can afford to be competitive. Therefore reducing the number of competitors, matches, and general interest in the sport. Limit the price to 250 a box , and the sport would be much more accessible to the people who just can't afford 10- 20 dollar a box ammo. The sport would have a much better chance to grow , and ammunition makers would have some incentive to produce better ammo , at a cheaper price.
Maybe, in cheap rifle / box stock events, that could work.

For any more serious competition, though, unless I'm missing something, whether you spend $3.00 or $30.00 a box for ammo, that's a pretty insignificant chunk of the overall cost to play. Rifle actions, stocks and barrels, quality optics, precision rests, and all the other tchotchkes we love so much tend to cost way more than a brick of quality ammo. And who would run their Lamborghini on regular just to save a few bucks at the pump?
 
#23 ·
Lets look at club NRL22 matches. 5 stages, 50 rounds total.
Cost
Match fee : $15.00
2x boxes of Lapua Center X : 22.00
So $37.00 total. That's pretty cheap.
Take one box and use it to zero and confirm drop at 25, 50, and 100 yards leaving the remaining 50 for a match.
You don't have to but a 5k round case for 1000.00, just buy a few 50ct boxes or a brick of 500.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
 
#76 ·
Lets look at club NRL22 matches. 5 stages, 50 rounds total.
Cost
Match fee : $15.00
2x boxes of Lapua Center X : 22.00
So $37.00 total. That's pretty cheap.
Take one box and use it to zero and confirm drop at 25, 50, and 100 yards leaving the remaining 50 for a match.
You don't have to but a 5k round case for 1000.00, just buy a few 50ct boxes or a brick of 500.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
I'm thinking the same thing, except, I use CCI Standard Velocity. There has not been a stage where I could say "Gee, that ammo caused me to miss" it was always me behind that trigger. Ammunition does not win you these matches, fundamentals and marksmanship win.
 
#26 ·
There will always be a cost to play the game no matter what the hobby is. I personally do not like the idea of club provided ammo. In my opinion, this makes the match more of a game of luck.
Try starting a rifle offhand match, no sling, 2 lb min trigger pull at 25 yds. At 25yds you will see minimal difference in a low end SV round vs Eley Tenex. If you can hold offhand to have that difference count in your score, then more power to you.
This makes it more personal skill rather than ammo.
 
#27 ·
Simple logic , allowing high priced ammo into competition; limits the amount of people that can afford to be competitive.
That depends on the competition. I can't speak to pistol, but ideas below.

Everyone seems to agree that all .22 ammo is good at 25 yards, so a 50 foot match would eliminate the ammo cost problem, and shooting all offhand (rifle) with a non-adjustable stocked factory rifle and max 6x scope should take care of the rest.

There is an in door Schuetzen postal league that allows this (with two classes: Open and Traditional (for the single shot external hammer folks).

The biggest problem is shooters expecting to "be competitive" (ie Win) without defining Winning as improving their own scores without regard to what other shooters are doing.

Our local club shooters complained when the juniors showed up for a match for the same reasons other shave stated, the kids were practicing more, and more effectively, and taking home most of the awards. As a shooter I had to recognize the problem was mine for lack of training, but as the junior club coach that the rewards were also mine.
 
#28 · (Edited by Moderator)
Simple logic , allowing high priced ammo into competition; limits the amount of people that can afford to be competitive. Therefore reducing the number of competitors, matches, and general interest in the sport. Limit the price to 250 a box , and the sport would be much more accessible to the people who just can’t afford 10- 20 dollar a box ammo. The sport would have a much better chance to grow , and ammunition makers would have some incentive to produce better ammo , at a cheaper price.
I agree! It's Remington Golden Bullet and Thunderbolt for me! .04 cents a round! 830 4 star reviews! https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/remington-bucket-o-bullets-22-lr-rimfire-ammo
 
#29 ·
Jammer,

That Ammo performs at a level matching the price, so I would suspect the reviews to be positive.

The good news is you can use that Ammo in either class of ARA or any other competition.

I see your location posted as " Nowhere Good". I am not aware of any Competitions close to you. Where do you shoot?
 
#30 · (Edited)
So control the ammo?
What about the other things?
Like the model gun shot.
The optics or sights used.
The rest.
The clothes the shooter wears.
The auto they drive to the match.

This is the USA last time I checked.
As long as gun meets the standards for Mat h at hand, game on.

Ever notice.
Those pga golfers ain’t using Wally World special golf clubs. LOL
The big time bass pros ain’t motoring around in lakes with elcheapo bass trackers. Lol

Gun manufacturers, scope manufacturers, ammo manufacturers would suffer under your plan OP.
 
#33 ·
Wow, you really think it's the price of ammo that holds people back from getting into this? It's not, it's the person deciding that they can't spend the time to get good enough at the highest level to win that match!
I personally don't shoot matches or compete because I know it means a lot of work to really be good. Why should I have the right to decide to limit the best shooters who practice and spend more money with many items they use other than the ammo by setting regs. on the cheapest part of the sport - ammo?
Maybe YOU can make a set of rules/regs. and sign up a few gun ranges to try to start that type of league, some others may be able to help, promote it to them that you want to have a friendly match set up for the locals, you can set up a lot of regs. to help keep it cheap and that might work for the non-serious shooters but once they get that itch to get to be the best they will leave the nest and go into the real world and spend lots of money to get there.
So you want more people to be able to compete cheaply, set a league yourself with the limits and keep it going. You will have a lot of turn over because good ones get much better and move along to matches that would allow better/costly equipment to prove themselves and the usual bottom people will drop out cause they can't win and won't put the effort into it.
It's like asking a professional basketball player to game a game of hoops but he can't wear his shoes, has to use only one hand and hop along.

Getting people to get into this sport or firearms in general has more to do with YOU and how you promote it to your friends and kids. Go talk to your co-workers and take them to the range, getting people involved with firearms has nothing to do with getting them into a match. Why you think they need to be match worthy? Take a few non-gun friends out to dinner then go shoot a few targets and show them it can be fun. Not everybody like to compete as some don't want the stress.

So much wrong with the thinking here about why people are not doing it and not everything is about the money side as you think it is. :eek:
 
#37 ·
I got it. But there's a lot of people out there that spend a lot or money on their guns.i shoot the best cheap ammo I can find ie cci geco Aquila. All around 1.99 to 2.99 . and can shoot with the best 10.00 plus ammo. And if you are not shooting 5 to 6 days a week .like the guys that are really good shooters no need for high dollar ammo.

Sent from my LM-X410.FGN using Tapatalk
 
#39 ·
Lever action silhouette matches aren't costly at all. A new gun can be setup for a little over $500, and 5 cent/round standard velocity will get the job done.

It's a type of match where higher scores can't be bought. It totally boils down to the shooter's skill and preparation.
 
#40 ·
A couple observation
First off I shoot at a local club that provides the ammo, CCI SV and I thought that was cool.
I'm just getting back into the friendly 22 rifle game at age 60 so I bought a new rifle, shot a fare amount of that ammo and it was OK. So I go to my first match and I Win one, and place second in round two!
So Wow I love these rules! Right! Until my gun decides it doesn't like the new CCI SV
(I know there's all kinds of people that can FIX My problem lol) that's another story.
The point is I still do well at this shoot but I quickly found out that you have this group of people that love chasing this Ammo at all costs!!
(So the intended cost savings) to draw in the new and less fortunate shooters is in it's self created a class of shooters that have spent so much time and money tuning, for lack of a better term, on higher end (ammo specific) barrels or guns that the so called intended participant doesn't have much of a chance with an off the shelf rifle.

Having restrictions such as a base class and a open class has its place but like others have stated Ammo is not the place to draw the line in the Sand it's the cheapest part of 22lr shooting for most of us, and the rest, well they'll be shooting in open class lol
The NRL tried by setting the cost of Rifle and optics for base class at $1050 a number I unknowingly went over right off the bat! Lol


I like your effort to keep cost down but I've personally seen people walk off the firing line very disappointed because the only rifle they can afford just doesn't like brand X ammo or everyone's favorite
CCI everything! (Not in my gun) lol
Good luck with your local club or better yet the same old friends that always lye about how good there new gun shoots
 
#41 ·
Hmmmm. Let's see. If we hold the ammo cost to $2.50/50 rounds, then does the gun and accessories have an unlimited budget?
If so, then I'll address just the ammo. If I do a massive amount of testing of budget ammo, and find a $2.99 box that shoots exceptionally well, will I still be able to use it if I can find it at $2.49/box in bulk or on sale?

This goes back to page one, of the statements about cheating. Is it cheating if I can get a more expensive, (and thus better), ammo at a discount?

I suggest, strictly by the OP's ruling wordage, that I can use it, even if it does give me an advantage over the rest of the budget ammo shooters.

Looking at just the OP's idea, I think that the class would die, as there would be no sponsors, thus no prize funding. Without prizes, it's just a group practice session, other than a few bragging rights. (I suspect most of us here are a bit more humble than that.).

Why should a guy or gal pay to compete in the class, when he/she can save the entry fee, and just call it practice?

Just my thoughts.....Roger
 
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