Trigger problems and Stovepiping - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-02-2018, 12:45 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Trigger problems and Stovepiping



Log in to see fewer ads
I have an MLR22TB (Magnum Research 10/22) that I use for competition (see thread https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1132965). The rifle had stovepiping issues from the beginning.

I had a Ruger trigger group from my Target Model 10/22 (1997 model, metal housing). I swapped it into the MLR22. It was still a bit stiff, so (after much RFC reading and video watching) I polished the surfaces and hammer face. I polished and radiused the bolt. I installed a Kidd guide rod and spring (the lightest spring), a Volquartsen extractor, and the stovepiping went away. The trigger pull was still quite hard.

I installed a Volquartsen Target Hammer and hammer spring and the pull was excellent. But then, I ran into the issue of the hammer failing to reset. On multiple shots at the range, the rifle would fire, load the next round, and the hammer would not be cocked. Even working the bolt manually would not reset the hammer. Of course, this happened right before my next competition!

I took the tirgger apart, checked everything, and cleaned the surfaces. I went to the indoor range on the day before the competition and it still didn't work. I ran to Cabelas, bought a BX trigger ($80, full price!), installed it and went back to the indoor range. The BX trigger shot well. But the rifle began stovepiping badly.

I competed with the rifle on Saturday, Sept 1, and had issues with stovepiping, but shot well when the rifle cooperated. I have read every thread, article, and rant I could find on stovepiping in the 10/22. I guess I am down to sending in the entire rifle to someone and have them try to fix it, but I really don't have that kind of money to spend. I am looking to RFC to offer any ideas to fix this problem.

Is it possible that the BX trigger holds the magazines at a different sopt that the previous Ruger trigger?

Is it possible that since I used the lightest Kidd sspring on the bolt that it is moving too fast and trapping the spent round (timing issue)?

All ideas are appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-02-2018, 01:03 PM
Hawkeye57's Avatar
Hawkeye57

Join Date: 
Nov 2015
Location: 
central Pa.
Posts: 
1,491
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Most people use the medium spring with no problems. What kind of ammo are you using ?

If you want to rule out the light spring, that's an easy test.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-02-2018, 03:33 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye57 View Post
Most people use the medium spring with no problems. What kind of ammo are you using ?

If you want to rule out the light spring, that's an easy test.
I am using Eley Force ammo. The problem with testing any changes is that it is 45 minutes (no traffic) one way to the range. Northern Virginia near DC is not a place you can step out back and shoot.

Also, I cannot disassemble my rifle at the range and change out parts there. I do need to test out the different springs bought with the Kidd guide rod kit, though. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 09-02-2018, 04:02 PM
Hawkeye57's Avatar
Hawkeye57

Join Date: 
Nov 2015
Location: 
central Pa.
Posts: 
1,491
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokipaux View Post
I am using Eley Force ammo.
IMO 1250 fps is way to fast for the lightest spring. I would change springs before doing any thing else. Make any changes one at a time then test. That makes it a lot easier to track a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-02-2018, 04:17 PM
Popeye1959's Avatar
Popeye1959
US Navy Disabled American Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! Appleseed Rifleman

Join Date: 
Feb 2013
Location: 
Zion, IL
Posts: 
395
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokipaux View Post
I am using Eley Force ammo. The problem with testing any changes is that it is 45 minutes (no traffic) one way to the range. Northern Virginia near DC is not a place you can step out back and shoot.

Also, I cannot disassemble my rifle at the range and change out parts there. I do need to test out the different springs bought with the Kidd guide rod kit, though. Thanks!
I know the feeling about not being able to spontaneously go shoot a gun just for a function test, so I assembled my own test barrel. I have a 3 foot length of 3" diameter iron pipe with a cap threaded on one end. I put a foot of sand in the bottom, ball up a rag and rod that down to the top of the sand and wrap some rags around the muzzle end of the gun barrel so it fits snuggly in the pipe. I go out to my shed and test fire handguns (non-magnum calibers), and .22LR rifles.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-02-2018, 04:24 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye1959 View Post
I know the feeling about not being able to spontaneously go shoot a gun just for a function test, so I assembled my own test barrel. I have a 3 foot length of 3" diameter iron pipe with a cap threaded on one end. I put a foot of sand in the bottom, ball up a rag and rod that down to the top of the sand and wrap some rags around the muzzle end of the gun barrel so it fits snuggly in the pipe. I go out to my shed and test fire handguns (non-magnum calibers), and .22LR rifles.
I love that idea! I am sure my wife will not. But I can do that. Also, if you haven't seen the slow motion video of a Ruger bolt ejecting a round and then stovepiping, take a look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5IauiYNigo

Watching that makes me believe the timing of the bolt is a factor. The spent casing rebounds off of the bolt face and gets caught sideways. Now, off to Home Depot for a pipe.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-02-2018, 05:05 PM
Chaser's Avatar
Chaser
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! UotM

Join Date: 
Aug 2005
Location: 
S.E. Idaho
Posts: 
20,581
TPC Rating: 
100% (74)
Send a message via AIM to Chaser
Sticky/Dirty chamber... scrub the chamber with Hoppes and this : http://www.gunsmithertools.com/brush...ool/index.html

Then.. use Hornady One Shot Dry Lube spray on the bolt/rod and in the interior of the Receiver... bet your stove piping goes away... if you are still struggling with the trigger buy the KIDD trigger kit...sell the BX.. HoHum.

I could reference at least a dozen recent threads on the need to SCRUB THE CHAMBER approx. 200 rds with tight aftermarket barrels or at min every 400-500 rounds in the sloppie arss OEM barrel.
__________________
"I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of
it." --Clint Eastwood

Last edited by Chaser; 09-02-2018 at 05:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-02-2018, 08:17 PM
Outrider
US Navy Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jul 2014
Location: 
South Central PA
Posts: 
413
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Back in the dark ages, when I lived in the DC suburbs of MD, the eastern equivalent of the OP's location, I used an assembly similar to the sand in pipe device described above,and it worked fine. Didn't even go out to the shed - the basement worked just fine.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-02-2018, 08:22 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaser View Post
Sticky/Dirty chamber... scrub the chamber with Hoppes and this : http://www.gunsmithertools.com/brush...ool/index.html

Then.. use Hornady One Shot Dry Lube spray on the bolt/rod and in the interior of the Receiver... bet your stove piping goes away... if you are still struggling with the trigger buy the KIDD trigger kit...sell the BX.. HoHum.

I could reference at least a dozen recent threads on the need to SCRUB THE CHAMBER approx. 200 rds with tight aftermarket barrels or at min every 400-500 rounds in the sloppie arss OEM barrel.
I have a bent brush that I placed on a pistol rod handle, but I ordered one of these to have them all together. I do have a Bentz chamber in the Magnum Research graphite barrel. I use the Eley ammo because of this and thought it might not be a problem. I will do this and eliminate one more factor, thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-09-2018, 12:46 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I made it back to the range this weekend. I changed the Kidd guide rod spring out for the strongest one. At the first, I still had a few stovepipes. I then shot some Winchester Super X Super Speed (read "cheap ammo"), about 60 rounds. It worked great. I changed to some SK Standard. Again, no problems with the action. I went back to the Eley Force, and it fed well.

I think it just took a few rounds and some breaking in to get the Red Kidd spring to settle in. The rifle shot well. I was able to hit targets out to 300 yards with 10 consecutive rounds from each magazine.

So it seems that the Green Kidd spring is not one to use with high velocity ammo. For some reason, the BX trigger brought this out more than my modified Ruger trigger. Thanks, everyone, for the help. I did get the Gunsmither chamber cleaning tool. It is now ensconced in my range bag for use if needed.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-09-2018, 01:43 PM
Chaser's Avatar
Chaser
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! UotM

Join Date: 
Aug 2005
Location: 
S.E. Idaho
Posts: 
20,581
TPC Rating: 
100% (74)
Send a message via AIM to Chaser
white spring=standard, red spring =10% increase, no color=10% decrease

If you got it running well leave it alone.. BUT, with subsonic or Std. Velocity the STD. spring should be plenty.. you actually went the wrong way with the Red.. the Red is for High Vel/Hypers... and as your action gets dirty or starts needing more lube and IF you are using the SK and Eley you may start getting more stovepipes.. just be aware.

Lot's of variables...

A quote from KIDD site:
There is no absolute formula for when to use the 10% heavier or 10% lighter. Perfect timing allows the autoloader to cycle without fail and imperfect timing can cause problems. For most rifle set ups and most ammunition the standard spring will work best. But if, for instance a rifle was cycling well until a lighter load of ammunition was tried then the 10% lighter spring may facilitate proper timing once again.

By the way.. I did not see what bolt handle/rod you are using...? That is another variable... I have had 7 different handle assemblies in my hands and the weight spread between them was crazy.. some are 2-3 oz. heavier than others which will retard the timing.
__________________
"I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of
it." --Clint Eastwood

Last edited by Chaser; 09-09-2018 at 01:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:17 PM
Lokipaux

Join Date: 
Feb 2018
Posts: 
47
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaser View Post
white spring=standard, red spring =10% increase, no color=10% decrease

If you got it running well leave it alone.. BUT, with subsonic or Std. Velocity the STD. spring should be plenty.. you actually went the wrong way with the Red.. the Red is for High Vel/Hypers... and as your action gets dirty or starts needing more lube and IF you are using the SK and Eley you may start getting more stovepipes.. just be aware.

Lot's of variables...

A quote from KIDD site:
There is no absolute formula for when to use the 10% heavier or 10% lighter. Perfect timing allows the autoloader to cycle without fail and imperfect timing can cause problems. For most rifle set ups and most ammunition the standard spring will work best. But if, for instance a rifle was cycling well until a lighter load of ammunition was tried then the 10% lighter spring may facilitate proper timing once again.

By the way.. I did not see what bolt handle/rod you are using...? That is another variable... I have had 7 different handle assemblies in my hands and the weight spread between them was crazy.. some are 2-3 oz. heavier than others which will retard the timing.
Sorry for taking a while to answer this. I am using the bolt handle that came with the MLR22TB. The guide rod is Kidd. The handle is lightweight aluminum.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:45 AM
Tom_in_MO's Avatar
Tom_in_MO
US Army Veteran

Join Date: 
Apr 2016
Location: 
St. Louis, MO
Posts: 
1,749
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Very interesting and informative read, thanks all!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:44 PM
Bill

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Bailey, Colorado
Posts: 
360
TPC Rating: 
100% (5)
Send a message via AIM to Bill
So start with the basics check hammer strut eclipse up. Check for wear or bent ejector could even switch with your old to see if it makes a difference. Any wear makes on bolt or inside receiver. Check for wear in the slot to bolt of the bolt handle too big of gap you have problems. Has the bolt been worked over for headspace if so check to see if still squared. Was old trigger housing metal? Gut the bx in metal one see how it works.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:45 PM
Bill

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Bailey, Colorado
Posts: 
360
TPC Rating: 
100% (5)
Send a message via AIM to Bill
Spell check is a pain e clip faces up on hammer strut
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x