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  #1  
Old 04-15-2018, 02:00 PM
twobit

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Faked/Altered Model 61 Rifle Listing



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This has been a hard month for Model 61 collectors looking for high condition and unique chamber and barrel configurations. I have identified 3 rifles in just this month which started out their life as standard round barrel short, long, and long rifle chambers. Then they mysteriously show up with either round barrel LR Shot Only or octagon barrel rifles in later auction or website offerings. So, in an effort to help out the collecting community of these cool little guns I have decided to start a list of the known serial numbers that have been altered. These are rifles which have been deliberately altered, most commonly by swapping or replacing barrels to make what was a standard rifle into a single chamber alternative.** This list DOES NOT* include the many many rifles which have been refinished or had wood sanded and refinished. Keep this post archived and when you see something "to good to be true" you just might want to take a look here. I will update this as I dig through all my data and spread sheet info. If anyone has any suggestion or further input I am more than happy to hear it.

Thanks. Michael

For starters:

1331 Added 16 October 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...al/#p757093863
4146
9316 Added 25 Sept 2019 [url]https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-22-rim-fire/restored-model-61-at-montrose-sept-2019-1272/#p85336[url]
9751 Added 28 November 2019 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1177913
8775 Added 16 April 2018
22217 Added 12 Oct 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...orphy/#p75595]
29978
32154
38034
45030
50787 Added 18 June 2018 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...5#post11070135
61553 Added 28 November 2019 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1177913
63529 Added 2 Aug 2018 https://winchestercollector.org/foru...t/#p7415964388
67623
77275 Added 30 Nov 2018 Read the description VERY carefully RIA Dec 2017 Lot 364 Left side WINCHESTER label is "custom"
80472 Added 30 Nov 2018 Not proven but "highly suspect" Offered on Gunbroker.com out of Henryetta, OK by the same seller who has sold proven fakes owned by Charles Key.
83093 Barrel switched from standard to Short Only and Rec engraved WINCHESTER with gallery loading port. Added 1 Oct 2018
95787
98030
128172 Standard rifle faked as Shot Only w/ box by Steve Barnett. $6500 6 June 2018
128982 Not "Proven" but HIGHLY suspect.
129280 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1106121
140091 Barrel switched from LR to LR Shot Only. Previously listed at Mike Bishop now at RIA Added Aug 23 2018
154400 Barrel switched from standard to Short Only. Originally sold on GB out of Christiansburg, VA. Now listed on GB out of "Winchester Guns" in Jamestown, CA. The guy who always has fake boxes.
154602 Added Oct 4 2019 Originally sold out of Remlap, AL on Gunbroker as a standard rifle. Purchased in Nov 2013 at Tulsa from CH Key as a RB Long Rifle only. Yet ANOTHER CH Key related fake.
161484 Not "Proven" but HIGHLY suspect
161680
282663
300626 Added 16 April 2018

Last edited by twobit; 11-28-2019 at 08:17 AM.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2018, 02:49 PM
joe45c
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relieved to see mine isn't on that list!
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  #3  
Old 04-16-2018, 07:41 AM
twobit

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Good morning guys,

I added a rather lengthy and extremely interesting reply to this same thread which is posted on the WACA forum site. It is pasted below because I believe we should all read it.

Quote:
Good morning Roger,

At first glance the rifle looks real nice. BUT, you have to ask yourself for a rifle described as "Extremely fine. The rifle retains 98% plus showing some light cycling marks." why then was the wood in need of being refinished as is mentioned in the catalogue???

And here is something I find VERY interesting in my data. Between SN 152404 and 187218 (34,814 rifles) I have cataloged 397 specimens. The production is dominated by standard round barrel plane Jane rifles. But there are 7 Rifles scattered about that are RB 22 WRF chambered. And guess what, 4 of those were sold out of RIA, 2 out of Little Johns, and 1 at Julia's!!!!!! WHY is it that only the large auction houses have access to these "rare" rifles???? My personal feeling is that I would be suspect of all of them.

But wait!!! It gets even more crazy! Within this same interval there are 14 rifles chambered in 22 LR Shot Only and 4 rifles chambered 22 RB Short only. Of the 14 LR guns there were 6 sold out of RIA, 2 from Julia, and 2 from Steve Barnett. Of the 4 Short Only rifles 1 from Julia, 1 from Little Johns, 1 from Steve Barnett, and one at Montrose auction.

Call me highly skeptical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that all these guns are out of "premier collections" and thus only offered via large auction houses. Especially if/when they are not portrayed that way in catalogues. So if you look at the totals of the WRF, LR Only, and RB Short Only guns in this range there are a total of 21 desirable single chamber rifles that just also happen to be in really nice condition because the original owners just happen to never use them (my sarcasm) and 10 (almost half) were sold out of RIA, 3 sold out of Little Johns, 3 sold out of Julia's and 3 from Steve Barnett. So that is 19 out of 21 sold out of very specific and consistent sources.

Right now I am feeling REAL GOOD that I never bought a high condition Model 61 rifle from these sources. And for my fellow survey takers I learned this. If you keep track of enough information you never know what you might be able to figure out.

i hope all this helps guys.

Michael

Last edited by twobit; 06-06-2018 at 10:56 AM.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:13 AM
karls42 is online now

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Nice work, keep it up
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:52 AM
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Good job Michael! Thanks for the dedication. Peter
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:27 AM
Carney Pace

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i had a friend ( now at the great gun show in the sky) who did appraisals for collections and insurance.

He said that there are more engraved Winchesters in collections than the factory ever produced. At that time he was referring to 1866,1873,Henry's and mainly lever guns.

Probably the same with Colt's and S&W.

Carney
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:57 PM
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There’s an interesting 61 “Special” on display for sale in GB at this very moment. Take a look. Hard to say if it’s pure or not. I’m currently waiting in more info and pictures. We’ll see if I get them.......Michael, you’re commitment to tracking the model 61 rifles is priceless. Thank you!

Last edited by Fryeburg500; 11-29-2018 at 04:59 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:44 AM
northwoodneil
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A 61 red letter is up on gunbroker no serial# mentioned or seen. Minimum bid $13,500. I don't know but the box it comes with looks familiar?
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:51 PM
papalondog
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A 61 short only round barrel just showed up for sale on GI. I wouldn't touch it. Just has that suspicious look.
No serial number shown for some reason!!

Last edited by papalondog; 05-13-2019 at 02:53 PM. Reason: add
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:02 PM
Renegade61

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Routledge re-appears

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/826423754

My records show that this gun (#47009) was sold in July, 2016 for $3500 with NO mention of box, papers, etc.
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  #11  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:08 AM
twobit

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade61 View Post
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/826423754

My records show that this gun (#47009) was sold in July, 2016 for $3500 with NO mention of box, papers, etc.
This is the third place I have seen the rifle. It was first seen on Guns International and listed by Dave Condon, then by Puglisi Guns out of Duluth and now from this guy in California. Which sales was in 2016? The box is an obvious fake and this guy always has faked boxes with his rifles.

Michael
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Old 09-07-2019, 02:24 PM
Johnymango

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Has anyone contacted the FBI or atf about this?
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  #13  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:53 AM
twobit

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I have updated the list with SN 9316.

Michael
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:39 PM
Camster

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnymango View Post
Has anyone contacted the FBI or atf about this?
With all due respect, why would they be interested? It's a caveat emptor world. The gun isn't stolen. Basically just cosmetically altered, with perhaps an unverifiable back story offered, so?
No different than buying a cloned muscle car. One has to know what one is buying and do his due diligence.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:37 PM
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Has anybody ever seen a model 61 with a threaded barrel? Owner says 1947 model . Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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