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  #31  
Old 06-16-2019, 04:07 PM
n64atlas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth View Post
Back when I used to watch the CMP auctions on a regular basis, I saw a few 75 trainers go through auction with numbers as high as the 38XXX range. I own one of these that has a "41" dated barrel, lyman 57E rear, 93A front, parkerized metal, shaved comb, mismatched bolt and at least two rebuild stamps and proofs in the stock. As Big Larry says, its any ugly rifle, but I bought it for its history, not what it looks like.
The shaved stock and miss matched bold might have been used by clubs to train Young shooters. Just like the Remington 513T's that the CMP released.
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  #32  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:43 PM
azimuth

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Production stopped in 1943 at 35479. Didn't start up till 1946.
n64atlas, where can this documentation be found?
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  #33  
Old 06-16-2019, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth View Post
n64atlas, where can this documentation be found?
The information that n64atlas quoted is incorrect. The Polishing Room records exist for the Model 75 and serial number 48950 was applied the week of October 23, 1942 which was the last week of production until 1945. 48950 was likely the last of the USGI M75 government order as commercial rifle production had already been halted due to the war.

Serial numbers re-commenced in the Polishing Room October 29, 1945 and the last number applied in December, 1945 was 49097. The 1945 production receivers (150+) were likely made to fill the US government order for spare or replacement parts for the 75 Training rifles previously furnished.

I have said this before, and will state it again, the dates published by Madis (and repeated by other authors) for the Model 75 post-WWII are NOT correct and are skewed by several years. They were simply estimates based on production because he was not aware of the existence of the polishing room records as they were discovered much later. Madis did the best with the information he had available at the time by averaging production numbers to arrive at dates but there is more accurate info based on the actual serial numbers available now from the Winchester Polishing Room records at Cody and other sources.

Hope that helps.

Best Regards,


.

Last edited by JWA; 06-16-2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #34  
Old 06-16-2019, 10:10 PM
n64atlas
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My info was published in Ned Schwing's book "Winchester Pocket Guide"

JWA, Does the polishing room info indicate shipment or just that they were polished on those dates?
Are there any records that Winchester completed their contract with the military? You can't assume that because they were polished, that they were sent out. Because these were valued higher than a commercial model at one time and there were military stocks available when Clinton crunched alot of these, who is to say there are not fakes out there.
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  #35  
Old 06-16-2019, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n64atlas View Post
My info was published in Ned Schwing's book "Winchester Pocket Guide"

JWA, Does the polishing room info indicate shipment or just that they were polished on those dates?
Are there any records that Winchester completed their contract with the military? You can't assume that because they were polished, that they were sent out. Because these were valued higher than a commercial model at one time and there were military stocks available when Clinton crunched alot of these, who is to say there are not fakes out there.
Schwing repeated the Madis dates, hence the continued confusion. The polishing room records record the last serial number that was applied to the receiver at the end of each week. The Warehouse Ledger is where the shipments were recorded.

Yes, Winchester completed all 3 of their contracts with the Military and fulfilled the spare parts order. I believe there was also another contract for R&R of some rifles post-war but I am not home to look through my files to verify it.

Regarding fakes, I am sure there are probably some commercial rifles that have been dropped into military stocks and are floating around out there. It would be reasonable to assume however that any serial number that was produced after the discontinuation of the commercial rifles in early 1942 (circa M75 serial # 36,xxx) until the aforementioned serial number 48950 would all be legitimate government contract rifles. I don't believe there were any "left-over" completed receivers in the bins after the last contract was fulfilled, hence the need to make a very small run of 150 more in 1945. That is all just assumption on my part though.

Best Regards,
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  #36  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:54 AM
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An argument can be made that the polishing records doesn't indicate completed rifles. Winchester had it's hands full making M1's and M1carbines. These were more important to the war effort than the trainers. They stopped when Mossberg got up to speed. Mossberg had over runs by wars end. Some of their contract blocks were cancelled. Other went into storage. At a time when money was tight, why would they buy or order Winchester instead of just using the the M44US models already made? Do you know what month those 1945 receivers were made and when they shipped? There is an old saying about assuming facts not in evidence. If you ever watched Benny Hill, you would know the saying.��
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  #37  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:47 AM
azimuth

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Thanks for that info, JWA. I've never had any doubt that my rifle (38930) was a trainer, but have always heard that it was too late to be a contract rifle. I'm not sure why someone would go through the trouble of finding/adding a 93 front sight and lyman 57 rear, parkerizing the metal, mismatching the bolt and dropping the rifle into a surplus stock only to sell it for half the price of current commercial offerings. That doesn't make any sense. I don't recall the model 75 trainers ever bringing very high prices and would seem a total waste of time and money to fake.
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  #38  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth View Post
Thanks for that info, JWA. I've never had any doubt that my rifle (38930) was a trainer, but have always heard that it was too late to be a contract rifle. I'm not sure why someone would go through the trouble of finding/adding a 93 front sight and lyman 57 rear, parkerizing the metal, mismatching the bolt and dropping the rifle into a surplus stock only to sell it for half the price of current commercial offerings. That doesn't make any sense. I don't recall the model 75 trainers ever bringing very high prices and would seem a total waste of time and money to fake.
At one time, trainers commanded more money than a stock M75. They were not a common rifle till the clubs turned them into the CMP. My first M75 cost me around $250. It was a 1939. I think I sold it for $300 when I needed money in the 90's.
Missmatched bolts are usually the result of club rifles being grouped cleaned or early CMP rifles being reworked so they could be sold. I had a CMP 40XB that had a 40X bolt.
Shoot, sporters were around $500 when I first started looking at the M75. Times change
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  #39  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n64atlas View Post
An argument can be made that the polishing records doesn't indicate completed rifles. Winchester had it's hands full making M1's and M1carbines. These were more important to the war effort than the trainers. They stopped when Mossberg got up to speed. Mossberg had over runs by wars end. Some of their contract blocks were cancelled. Other went into storage. At a time when money was tight, why would they buy or order Winchester instead of just using the the M44US models already made? Do you know what month those 1945 receivers were made and when they shipped? There is an old saying about assuming facts not in evidence. If you ever watched Benny Hill, you would know the saying.��
Of course the polishing room records are NOT the date the rifle was assembled, I apologize if I gave that impression. They are simply the date the receiver was polished and the serial number was applied (which, by the ATF definition, is when it becomes a firearm). The 1945 receivers were in the polishing room October 29, 1945 - December 5, 1945. There are NO shipment records for any of the Model 75s as the warehouse ledgers for the M75 are lost. There is existing documentation regarding the USGI order of spare/replacement parts, dates, quantities, etc. but again, I have not found any shipping records for those parts.

I completely understand your viewpoint, but it seems your argument doesn't make much sense if they were so busy making M1 Garands and M1 carbines why would they waste time making another 11,000 M75 receivers in the midst of war if they were not needed? Also, I am not sure I completely answered your previous question, but yes, there is documentation that Winchester completed the 3rd (and last) contract for the Model 75 Training rifles in 1942. So, they either used those receivers for that contract (which the serial numbers tend to validate) or, your suggested hypothesis, that they completed the contract and then went on to make thousands more receivers (with no USGI contract) and left them on the shelf to be assembled after the war.

There is no "proof" either way, the first scenario just seems much more plausible to me and existing M75 Trainer serial numbers and barrel dates tend to support it. Again, just my opinion on the subject and do not mean to imply it is correct.

On a related note, I have seen some 1945 dated barrels also, which means that in addition to the 150+ M75 receivers they were making M75 barrels in 1945 also.

Best Regards,

PS, I am a Benny Hill fan.

.

Last edited by JWA; 06-17-2019 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #40  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlysAlot View Post
All I know is, there ain't no good in an evil hearted woman, that rifle IS way out of trainer s/n range. Don't write hot checks, down in Mississippi, and some companies should stick to cars, generators and motorcycles... NOT airplanes
Thank you for the Winchester article, made me want to go out and buy another..

Rich
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  #41  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:45 PM
n64atlas
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I completely understand your viewpoint, but it seems your argument doesn't make much sense if they were so busy making M1 Garands and M1 carbines why would they waste time making another 11,000 M75 receivers in the midst of war if they were not needed? Also, I am not sure I completely answered your previous question, but yes, there is documentation that Winchester completed the 3rd (and last) contract for the Model 75 Training rifles in 1942. So, they either used those receivers for that contract (which the serial numbers tend to validate) or, your suggested hypothesis, that they completed the contract and then went on to make thousands more receivers (with no USGI contract) and left them on the shelf to be assembled after the war.

There is no "proof" either way, the first scenario just seems much more plausible to me and existing M75 Trainer serial numbers and barrel dates tend to support it.
PS, I am a Benny Hill fan.

.[/QUOTE]

Having worked in factories for many year, way before JIT production, some parts of the plant will out preform other parts. They make these in batches until they are told to stop. Not all the sections can keep up. Unfortunately we don't have the shipping records which will let us know how many actually made to the Army. Not sure if the Army still has those records either. Winchester agreed to make trainers till the others that were not making the battle gear could get up to speed. Remember, in 41 they still had Springfields in service! There probably will never be a true answer to this debate. Those that would know are in their 90's now or gone. Karl Kenyon probably knew the ans may he rest in piece. Collecting has taken on another level where we want all the history, not just the firearm!
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  #42  
Old 06-17-2019, 01:58 PM
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We do have the contracted amounts for the M75 and the documentation that the orders were fulfilled, the last contract order was fulfilled in 1942. We also do have the exact amount delivered to the government. Those contracts were probably the most heavily documented orders in the entire production of the M75. There is a banker box full of the information you seek at Cody, except the warehouse records which shows the date they were shipped. The Winchester documentation states the government ordered over 15,000 M75s and they were all delivered by the end of 1942. I am not sure what your basis is for thinking they were not delivered or held until after 1945 as there is no documentation that even hints at that.

Also, I will mention again that all commercial production was halted in early 1942 for the war effort (there are many Winchester internal directives and memos to that effect). No indication of a "rogue" department cranking out receivers after that..... ;-)

I am not home or I would scan and post some of the Winchester internal documentation regarding the USGI M75s for you.

Best Regards,


.

Last edited by JWA; 06-17-2019 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #43  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:56 PM
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OK, I'm a bit confused. I have a Win 75T which has been in the family a long time, although I can no longer ask exactly when it was purchased.

It is (I think) a fairly run of the mill rifle, with no unusual markings, and came with a Winchester 105A front sight, and a Lyman 58E rear sight, as shown in this September 1947 Boys' Life advertisement.

https://books.google.com/books?id=RG...20life&f=false

The date on the barrel is "47". The SN is 40428. which according to oldguns.net (Madis' numbers, I think) is a DOM of 1947, but the WACA site says it's 1942.

There is no obvious indication that the gun has been rebarreled, and in fact the proof marks are both a little crooked in the same direction, in that if the muzzle is at 9 o'clock, the top of both marks is at about 10 o'clock.

So do I have a 1942 gun, or a 1947?
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  #44  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:22 PM
n64atlas
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Of course the polishing room records are NOT the date the rifle was assembled, I apologize if I gave that impression. They are simply the date the receiver was polished and the serial number was applied (which, by the ATF definition, is when it becomes a firearm). The 1945 receivers were in the polishing room October 29, 1945 - December 5, 1945. There are NO shipment records for any of the Model 75s as the warehouse ledgers for the M75 are lost. There is existing documentation regarding the USGI order of spare/replacement parts, dates, quantities, etc. but again, I have not found any shipping records for those parts

You said the above about shipping records. I took it to mean it is unknown how many got to the military. I took it as they made the 15,000 but there is no records that they shipped them all.

I tend to categorize trainers. To be a WWII trainer, it would have to be in the hands of the military during the war. That is not to say those that were received after the war are not trainers. They are a sub category of those trainers. Just like the Mossbergs that were not used yet were parkerized and put in storage but never used and the ones made but never shipped. As the contract was cancelled.

Sorry if I interpreted what you said, the wrong way.
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